Ted Simmons: HOF?

[Dick Whitman]

Eight-time All-Star
9,685 career plate appearances
248 HR
.285/.348/.437 (.785 OPS)
118 OPS+ (Fisk 117, Bench 126, Piazza 142, Carter 115)
2,472 hits
Peak (25-30) OPS+'s: 142-117-144-148-135-140
3 top 10 MVP finishes
WAR 50.1 (average HOF catcher 52.7)

Hall of Fame Statistics (BR)
Gray Ink: 95 (Average HOFer 144)
Hall of Fame Monitor: Batting 124 (Average HOFer 100)
Hall of Fame Standards: Batting 44 (Average HOFer 50)

 

[cranberry]

I'd put him in if I had a vote.

 

[Dick Whitman]

There are some guys - Harold Baines always seems like the perfect example to me - that got vote totals that seem very low considering their near-HOF numbers, but you understand why they got low vote totals because they are very clearly on the wrong side of the line, despite coming very close.

But then you have this group of guys like Simmons, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, and Albert Belle, about whom there is a serious conversation to be had. And, yet, they were all off the ballot in 2-3 years, tops.

It's maddening.

 

[cranberry]

Sportswriters, generally speaking, aren't very smart and they were even less inquisitive and more prone to group think and conventional wisdom back in the day. None of this surprises me.

 

[The Big Ragu]

Pretty close for me. I probably wouldn't put him in, but you can certainly make a case for him if you feel strongly. I think a reason he isn't in is that he played in an era with Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk and Gary Carter. And the line was between them. ... and him. I also think he was off the ballot way too soon. He deserved more consideration.

 

[CD Boogie]

I'd definitely vote for him. Unlike Baines, who was a consistent accumulator and never one of the best players in the game, Simmons was an elite player at his position. He didn't have the WS titles or the signature moments that Carter, Bench or Fisk had, and I think that's what hurt him and made him drop off the ballot so quickly. I'm guessing he gets in eventually.

 

[Dick Whitman]

I'd definitely vote for him. Unlike Baines, who was a consistent accumulator and never one of the best players in the game, Simmons was an elite player at his position. He didn't have the WS titles or the signature moments that Carter, Bench or Fisk had, and I think that's what hurt him and made him drop off the ballot so quickly. I'm guessing he gets in eventually.

Not only did he not have their postseason resume, he batted under .200 in his two postseasons. If the Brewers would have won it in '82 and he contributed in a big way, I wonder how much the narrative changes.

 

[novelist_wannabe]

No. Eye test. (I keed, I keed ...)

 

[bigpern23]

There are some guys - Harold Baines always seems like the perfect example to me - that got vote totals that seem very low considering their near-HOF numbers, but you understand why they got low vote totals because they are very clearly on the wrong side of the line, despite coming very close.

But then you have this group of guys like Simmons, Dwight Evans, Bobby Grich, and Albert Belle, about whom there is a serious conversation to be had. And, yet, they were all off the ballot in 2-3 years, tops.

It's maddening.

Without looking at his numbers, I remember being stunned that Belle fell off the ballot so quickly. He was an absolute monster (probably because of PED use) in his prime. He could wreck a game damn near by himself and was undoubtedly one of the most feared hitters in baseball during his career (probably because he seemed about as likely to murder an opponent on the field as he was to murder a hanging a slider). He batted for power and average, drove in 100+ runs every season, didn't strike out much - there's not much to dislike about the guy as an elite hitter. If Kirby Puckett could make it to the HOF after having his career cut short by injury, surely Belle deserved it.

 

[novelist_wannabe]

Seriously, even without the sabermetrics he warrants a hard look. Only predominant catcher with more RBIs was Yogi Berra. TS is second in doubles and third in total bases.

His biggest shortcoming is probably that his career mainly coincided with that of Johnny Bench, although with the notable exception of home runs their career numbers are similar.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The list of voting travesties begins and ends with **** Allen, but Belle and Simmons aren't all that far behind.

What was Simmons' reputation defensively? Looks like he led the league in passed balls three times and threw out 34 percent of would-be base stealers (compared to 43 percent for Bench). In 15,092 1/3 innings, Simmons surrendered 691 passed balls or wild pitches (one every 22 innings), compared to 540 of them in 14,488 1/3 innings for Bench (one every 26 innings). Runners attempted to steal 1,799 times on Simmons compared to 1,079 times on Bench (again, in 600 less innings).

 

[The Big Ragu]

The list of voting travesties begins and ends with **** Allen, but Belle and Simmons aren't all that far behind.

What was Simmons' reputation defensively? Looks like he led the league in passed balls three times and threw out 34 percent of would-be base stealers (compared to 43 percent for Bench).

He probably wasn't quite as bad as his reputation -- which I don't think was that great. He had a decent enough arm, if I remember correctly. But he probably wasn't a great catcher.

He played a lot of games at the position, and it is a difficult position to play well, so if he was too much of a liability he wouldn't have been out there. He had more than enough bat for a team to try to hide him at first base or in the outfield to get the bat in the line up.

 

[Dick Whitman]

He probably wasn't quite as bad as his reputation -- which I don't think was that great. He had a decent enough arm, if I remember correctly. But he probably wasn't a great catcher.

He played a lot of games at the position, and it is a difficult position to play well, so if he was too much of a liability he wouldn't have been out there. He had more than enough bat for a team to try to hide him at first base or in the outfield to get the bat in the line up.

On top of that, keep in mind that I'm comparing him to someone who won 10 consecutive Gold Gloves behind the plate, not the median Hall of Famer at the position.

 

[The Big Ragu]

On top of that, keep in mind that I'm comparing him to someone who won 10 consecutive Gold Gloves behind the plate, not the median Hall of Famer at the position.

Johnny Bench? It's not a worthwhile comparison. Bench was Bench.

My first year with good memories of following baseball, the Big Red Machine swept the Yankees in the World Series. Heading into the series, someone asked Sparky Anderson to compare Thurman Munson to Bench. Munson had been the AL MVP that year. Anderson's response was, “Munson is an outstanding ballplayer and he would hit .300 in the National League, but don’t ever compare nobody to Johnny Bench; don’t never embarrass nobody by comparing them to Johnny Bench.”

It sounds like a typical "get under the other teams' skin" response, especially how beloved Munson was. But man, was he right -- and that is coming from someone who idolized(s) Munson.

Someone else on this thread said Simmons' numbers are comparable to Bench's except for home runs. Or something like that. I kind of shook my head. If you offered anyone in those days Johnny Bench or Ted Simmons, you would have had to throw in a ridiculous amount to sweeten the pot to get them to take Ted Simmons.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Johnny Bench? It's not a worthwhile comparison. Bench was Bench.

My first year with good memories of following baseball, the Big Red Machine swept the Yankees in the World Series. Heading into the series, someone asked Sparky Anderson to compare Thurman Munson to Bench. Munson had been the AL MVP that year. Anderson's response was, “Munson is an outstanding ballplayer and he would hit .300 in the National League, but don’t ever compare nobody to Johnny Bench; don’t never embarrass nobody by comparing them to Johnny Bench.”

It sounds like a typical "get under the other teams' skin" response, especially how beloved Munson was. But man, was he right -- and that is coming from someone who idolized(s) Munson.

Someone else on this thread said Simmons' numbers are comparable to Bench's except for home runs. Or something like that. I kind of shook my head. If you offered anyone in those days Johnny Bench or Ted Simmons, you would have to throw in a ridiculous amount to sweeten the pot to get them to take Ted Simmons.

I know. I understand what he was getting at, but it reminded me of a few months ago, a friend on Facebook noted that, "The only difference between Ken Griffey, Jr., and Kenny Lofton was home runs."

Oh, you mean those 500 more home runs that he hit?

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

Just FYI eyeball of other catchers from the 70s and 80s not named Bench or Fisk.

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1970s Top 25 Catchers

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1980s Top 25 Catchers

Forgot about Bob Boone.
Simmons was good, but I put him in the same catergory as Darrell Porter, Lance Parrish and to a lesser degree Tony Pena.


My answer: No.

 

[Songbird]

His glasses bothered me.

 

[The Big Ragu]

None of those catchers were as good as Simmons. It's not even that close. Porter and Lance Parrish could hit, but it was more of a, "Good hitter for a catcher" thing. Simmons was a good hitter, period. The fact that he caught is what gives him a bit of Hall of Fame cred. Bob Boone and Tony Pena were both outstanding defensive catchers. but neither were near the hitters Simmons was.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Just FYI eyeball of other catchers from the 70s and 80s not named Bench or Fisk.

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1970s Top 25 Catchers

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1980s Top 25 Catchers

Forgot about Bob Boone.
Simmons was good, but I put him in the same catergory as Darrell Porter, Lance Parrish and to a lesser degree Tony Pena.


My answer: No.

Why?

 

[CD Boogie]

Just FYI eyeball of other catchers from the 70s and 80s not named Bench or Fisk.

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1970s Top 25 Catchers

Encyclopedia of Baseball Catchers - 1980s Top 25 Catchers

Forgot about Bob Boone.
Simmons was good, but I put him in the same catergory as Darrell Porter, Lance Parrish and to a lesser degree Tony Pena.


My answer: No.

Simmons' top 10 similarity scores for career include six Hall of Famers and several borderline guys.

1. Miguel Tejada (863)
2. Alan Trammell (831)
3. Joe Torre (820) *
4. Carlton Fisk (819) *
5. Gary Carter (817) *
6. Lou Whitaker (817)
7. Barry Larkin (807) *
8. Joe Cronin (806) *
9. Yogi Berra (803) *
10. Jimmy Rollins (798)

Porter most closely resembles all-non HOFers, while Parrish has a better case (compares to Carter, Hartnett and way down Bench).

Tony Pena, meanwhile, compares most closely to Brad Ausmus...

Simmons definitely deserves more respect than to be grouped with Porter, Parrish and Pena.