So burning a flag is a hate crime? Let's start applying this equally.

[old_tony]

Man charged with hate crime because he burned a flag.

Gay flag-burning suspect released on own recognizance | Local News - KETV Home

I guess the First Amendment is only applicable in special cases, right?

 

[bigpern23]

Man charged with hate crime because he burned a flag.

Man Burns American Flag Outside Manhattan Bar | NBC New York

I guess the First Amendment is only applicable in special cases, right?

 

[Baron Scicluna]

The story Tony posted isn't totally complete. It seems the guy stole it from the lesbian couple's house and burned it right in front of them.

Omaha man arrested for burning gay pride flag, resisting arrest | Local News - Home

So yes, hate crime. The same if the punk was burning a cross in front of them.

Come on, Tony, you're better than this.

 

[old_tony]

The story Tony posted isn't totally complete. It seems the guy stole it from the lesbian couple's house and burned it right in front of them.

Omaha man arrested for burning gay pride flag, resisting arrest | Local News - Home

So yes, hate crime. The same if the punk was burning a cross in front of them.

Come on, Tony, you're better than this.

Actually, neither should be a hate crime. There should be no such thing as "hate crimes." Penalizing thoughts is a very slippery slope.

Penalize the action? Definitely. Penalize the thought? Welcome to 1939 Germany.

 

[Ace]

Actually, neither should be a hate crime. There should be no such thing as "hate crimes." Penalizing thoughts is a very slippery slope.

Penalize the action? Definitely. Penalize the thought? Welcome to 1939 Germany.

Tony's correct. Who knows? The drunk kid with they gay uncle could love lesbians and was burning the flag and running onto their yard because he was chilly and thought the flag would offer some temporary relief and attract the attention of the women, who might have some flannel shirts to spare.

Seriously, T. No matter what was going through his empy head, his actions were demonstrating hatred as much as burning a cross in their yard. Plus, he destroyed their property.

So you can only really punish the thoughts by punishing the actions those thoughts must instigate.

 

[bigpern23]

Actually, neither should be a hate crime. There should be no such thing as "hate crimes." Penalizing thoughts is a very slippery slope.

Penalize the action? Definitely. Penalize the thought? Welcome to 1939 Germany.

I actually agree with that to a certain extent (without the hyperbole) and it makes for interesting discussion.

Does the motive really matter when it comes to murder? Deranged ex-boyfriend who murders woman deserves the same punishment as neo-Nazi skinhead who murders a black man while shouting the N-word.

However, where it gets murky, is in the messages that can be sent to people through various crimes. For instance, burning a cross the lawn of a black family is meant to instill fear and terror in that family, and is certainly worse than randomly burning a garbage can outside of a convenience store. Without hate crime legislation, however, both would basically be a misdemeanor arson charge and probably a $100 fine on their face.

However, I suspect, based on the initial post, this is not the discussion Old_Tony intends to have.

 

[Vombatus]

So, let me get this straight. Burning a flag is automatically identified as a hate crime, but 40 people of one race beating another isn't?

This country pays too much attention to inanimate objects.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

God Hates Flags

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

The story Tony posted isn't totally complete. It seems the guy stole it from the lesbian couple's house and burned it right in front of them.

Omaha man arrested for burning gay pride flag, resisting arrest | Local News - Home

So yes, hate crime. The same if the punk was burning a cross in front of them.

Come on, Tony, you're better than this.

You spelled bitterer wrong.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

You spelled bitterer wrong.

?

 

[DeskMonkey1]

I actually agree with that to a certain extent (without the hyperbole) and it makes for interesting discussion.

Does the motive really matter when it comes to murder? Deranged ex-boyfriend who murders woman deserves the same punishment as neo-Nazi skinhead who murders a black man while shouting the N-word.

However, where it gets murky, is in the messages that can be sent to people through various crimes. For instance, burning a cross the lawn of a black family is meant to instill fear and terror in that family, and is certainly worse than randomly burning a garbage can outside of a convenience store. Without hate crime legislation, however, both would basically be a misdemeanor arson charge and probably a $100 fine on their face.

However, I suspect, based on the initial post, this is not the discussion Old_Tony intends to have.

i had a co-worker, a libertarian who was certainly more right than left, say hate crimes should be eliminated and instead the offender should be charged with terrorism. Because, like in the cross example, they culprit is trying to instill terror in not just that black family but blacks in general.

While I generally dismiss the slippery slope argument as paranoia, I have seen things happen in society over the past 15-20 years that makes that possibility a little less remote.

 

[Spartan Squad]

?

He said you should have said bitterer then this instead of better than this.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

He said you should have said bitterer then this instead of better than this.

Ah, gotcha. I kept looking all over my post and I was like "I never used that word!"

 

[Batman]

If you replace "gay" with "Confederate" in this case, I have a feeling the same people calling for a hate crime prosecution would be lauding the flag thief as a national hero.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

If you replace "gay" with "Confederate" in this case, I have a feeling the same people calling for a hate crime prosecution would be lauding the flag thief as a national hero.

Well, how many lynchings were done by people inspired by the rainbow flag?

 

[outofplace]

Actually, neither should be a hate crime. There should be no such thing as "hate crimes." Penalizing thoughts is a very slippery slope.

Penalize the action? Definitely. Penalize the thought? Welcome to 1939 Germany.

Oh good. Nazi comparisons. Those are always helpful and never weak sauce.

This wasn't somebody showing up with their own rainbow flag and burning it. He stole the flag and burned it in front of the others. That certainly adds something to the intent.

I'm not a big fan of the idea of harsher penalties for a hate crimes, either, but your characterization of this crime is misleading at best.

 

[Vombatus]

Well, the gays should have defended their flag the way Rick Monday did.

 

[Riptide]

Tony's just mad because his West Virginia cousin broke into his house and stole his best deer.

 

[Alma]

Actually, neither should be a hate crime. There should be no such thing as "hate crimes." Penalizing thoughts is a very slippery slope.

Well, then. We'd better eliminate "motive" from any prosecutor's arsenal in a trial.

And what's an "attempted robbery" if, hell, all you did was break into a guy's house before you were caught by the owner.

 

[old_tony]

Well, then. We'd better eliminate "motive" from any prosecutor's arsenal in a trial.

And what's an "attempted robbery" if, hell, all you did was break into a guy's house before you were caught by the owner.

The motive is used for proving the crime. It isn't a charged crime in itself. Unless you want to post a bunch of links to criminal trials where the perpetrator was convicted of "wanting money."

Car thieves aren't convicted of "wanting a car." They're convicted of stealing a car.