Slate: We don't pay interns, but we will accept their baked goods.

[sgreenwell]

I'm normally a fan of Slate, but man, this column paints them in a pretty poor light when it comes to how they treat their interns: http://www.slate.com/id/2295652/

When did it become expected of interns to give us gifts for letting them work? Friends tell me this delicious and fattening injustice is not limited to Slate. We have a good internship program here, with opportunities to learn and write, but it's not that good. There's still a lot of Nexis searching and errands to the hardware store to make copies of the bathroom key. (I actually miss going to the hardware store myself.) We take advantage of their access to expensive journals through their college library credentials. And we're all so busy and disorganized that the poor interns get ignored much of the time if they don't make a lot of noise. And yet, at the rate we're going, soon we can expect our interns to treat us to lunch at the Palm, or at least an elaborate home-cooked meal.

Are there paid internships anymore? I did mine at a small daily in Rhode Island for a year and a half and made $9.50 an hour, I believe. Some of my other friends got freelance wages, while others got nothing, from different chains.

 

[black dude with pompano]

I know it's standard in some industries, but I think unpaid internships are unethical and disgusting.

 

[Stitch]

This is the test that has to be met for unpaid interns. All six points have to be met.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

 

[Mark2010]

Never got paid for my internship, back in the day. Didn't know better.

 

[PCLoadLetter]

This is the test that has to be met for unpaid interns. All six points have to be met.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment;
The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern;
The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff;
The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded;
The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship; and
The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

This is exactly how we treat our interns, who are unpaid. Also they have to be enrolled in school and they have to be getting class credit for the internship.

When I was an intern many years ago my role certainly extended beyond those guidelines, but that's what prepared me for a job in the business that started the week my internship ended. So, no complaints.

On any given day at my shop you could go out to the parking lot and pick out the five nicest cars. Three of them likely belong to interns. Not losing a lot of sleep on the lack of pay for them at my place.

 

[dirtybird]

I know it's standard in some industries, but I think unpaid internships are unethical and disgusting.

They probably are, but what can be done? Paid interns means fewer internships. Meaning fewer chances to pad resumes. I'm sure a lot of prospective interns don't want that.

And internships for credit are, in my experience, kind of a crock. Schools are inconsistent about requirements. It often seems like adding another level of work (papers about experience, work the boss has to do) and the only payout is "credits." Credits the intern has to pay for, which often count minimally toward completing a degree.

Admittedly some schools require internships for graduation, and that's awesome. Sadly many don't.

 

[Turtle Wexler]

This point has come up in similar discussions before, but relying on unpaid internships means journalism will become the province of the upper-middle-class, because those are the parents who will subsidize junior's dreams. This is a great way to ensure a lack of socioeconomic diversity in our industry's employment pool.

That said, I didn't take the Slate piece as an uppity "look how badly we treat interns! and get away with it!" I took it as one reporter's reflection on how quickly and deeply things have changed in their newsroom, which I'm sure could be echoed across many newsrooms.

 

[black dude with pompano]

This point has come up in similar discussions before, but relying on unpaid internships means journalism will become the province of the upper-middle-class, because those are the parents who will subsidize junior's dreams. This is a great way to ensure a lack of socioeconomic diversity in our industry's employment pool.

That said, I didn't take the Slate piece as an uppity "look how badly we treat interns! and get away with it!" I took it as one reporter's reflection on how quickly and deeply things have changed in their newsroom, which I'm sure could be echoed across many newsrooms.

That's very true, and I think that's been one of the criticisms of the high-end magazine industry that historically has relied on unpaid internships to a far higher degree than the newspaper business. It's reflected in the background of the people that ultimately go to work there.

 

[sgreenwell]

This point has come up in similar discussions before, but relying on unpaid internships means journalism will become the province of the upper-middle-class, because those are the parents who will subsidize junior's dreams. This is a great way to ensure a lack of socioeconomic diversity in our industry's employment pool.

That said, I didn't take the Slate piece as an uppity "look how badly we treat interns! and get away with it!" I took it as one reporter's reflection on how quickly and deeply things have changed in their newsroom, which I'm sure could be echoed across many newsrooms.

I took that to be the writer's intent as well, but the column came off as poorly executed to me. I'm a fan of his previous articles though, especially one about the Groupthink that develops among editors on Wikipedia.

 

[dirtybird]

This point has come up in similar discussions before, but relying on unpaid internships means journalism will become the province of the upper-middle-class, because those are the parents who will subsidize junior's dreams. This is a great way to ensure a lack of socioeconomic diversity in our industry's employment pool.

Doesn't the industry do this in some sense already? Obviously there is the valuation of things like unpaid internships and unpaid or badly paid school newspaper work. But right now we have a business that pays little, often forces a prospective job seeker to move far from where he or she would like to live, usually at great cost (often not reimbursed), and does not offer a ton of stability to top it all off. If someone from the lower half of the socioeconomic spectrum had all the skills of a good journalist (strong writer, good communicator, well organized, clear-headed in stressful situations), well there are probably much more lucrative and stable applications of said skills.

I love that you used the phrase "subsidize junior's dreams," because I think it cuts to the heart of the issue. If someone in the upper-middle class, they can afford to think in terms of following a passion and trying to do what they loves above all else. And an individual can often afford that outlook becuase of the subsidy provided by family. I'd imagine someone lower on the socioeconomic ladder would have to take a more pragmatic approach. The industry seems like it's in many ways geared to taking advantage of the way many people see journalism as a passion.

Even small things play a role, like access to a car for a high school or college kid who wants to freelance for the local paper, or the ability to survive even a short stretch of unemployment (although it rarely feels short).

Now I'm not trying to jump on the one half of your comment, it's just that whenever the socioeconomic question come up, it just sticks with me (and this probably misguided rant sprung forth). I also admit, this is speaking in generalities. There are certainly many journalists who did not come from upper-middle class or wealthy backgrounds. That being said, it just doesn't seem like the industry does much or even can do much to foster socioeconomic diversity, at least from my perspective.

Note: As it's been a them this week, I'll admit I'm a younger journalist, still somewhat close to the process of trying to get started in this business. My views reflect that admittedly smaller experience base. Should some older, wiser poster see it differently, see something in the industry encouraging socioeconomic diversity and discouraging the subsidized lifestyle, please feel free to correct me.

 

[Turtle Wexler]

Excellent job expounding upon my point, dirtybird.

 

[JimmyHoward33]

Our internship was unpaid when I had it some years ago, and has always been so. However it seems corporate is a wee bit concerned about the above definition of an unpaid internship not at all fitting what we were asking these kids to do. So they moved to cancel it all together, but the kid we'd already "hired" unpaid said he would end up losing college credit because he'd already signed up for the course and all (this corporate thing came down maybe 4 weeks before he was supposed to start). So they're paying him min. wage. Not sure if the program will continue next semester.

 

[Thomas Goldkamp]

Coming from the position of a recent college grad, I have no problem with unpaid internships. In fact, I worked an unpaid internship for the Rivals.com network for about a year and a half. Ultimately, it led to me getting access to the teams I covered, building a good portfolio and networking with other professionals in the industry who helped me land my first post-grad, full-time job.

In fact, several times I had the opportunity to get paid for the internship, but made it very clear to my employer that money wasn't important to me in college; I simply wanted the experience and the opportunity to get my name out there. Was that naive? Probably. I paid my way through college on my own dime and incurred a small loan doing so, pinching pennies the whole way.

But that internship built me many of the connections that got me pretty well intertwined into the network I wanted to be in. I landed a brief freelancing position with the Palm Beach Post before being offered a full-time job elsewhere before I even graduated.

Now I have a job I love and will have my loans paid off before they even start accruing interest. Would I have gotten the job had I tried for a paid internship instead? Possibly. But I do think my recommendations were stronger because I worked my ass off for a year and a half without asking for a dime. So, from my perspective, an unpaid internship worked out just fine.

 

[Stitch]

Coming from the position of a recent college grad, I have no problem with unpaid internships. In fact, I worked an unpaid internship for the Rivals.com network for about a year and a half. Ultimately, it led to me getting access to the teams I covered, building a good portfolio and networking with other professionals in the industry who helped me land my first post-grad, full-time job.

In fact, several times I had the opportunity to get paid for the internship, but made it very clear to my employer that money wasn't important to me in college; I simply wanted the experience and the opportunity to get my name out there. Was that naive? Probably. I paid my way through college on my own dime and incurred a small loan doing so, pinching pennies the whole way.

But that internship built me many of the connections that got me pretty well intertwined into the network I wanted to be in. I landed a brief freelancing position with the Palm Beach Post before being offered a full-time job elsewhere before I even graduated.

Now I have a job I love and will have my loans paid off before they even start accruing interest. Would I have gotten the job had I tried for a paid internship instead? Possibly. But I do think my recommendations were stronger because I worked my ass off for a year and a half without asking for a dime. So, from my perspective, an unpaid internship worked out just fine.

What a surprise, another recent grad who's was willing to work for free. Are you willing to work 80 hours and get paid for 40 as well? To not take any money when it was offered was just foolish.

Let's face it, there are laws and rules regarding unpaid internships. Any decent editor would pounce on a big company in his/her area if those companies broke the law.

 

[Thomas Goldkamp]

Coming from the position of a recent college grad, I have no problem with unpaid internships. In fact, I worked an unpaid internship for the Rivals.com network for about a year and a half. Ultimately, it led to me getting access to the teams I covered, building a good portfolio and networking with other professionals in the industry who helped me land my first post-grad, full-time job.

In fact, several times I had the opportunity to get paid for the internship, but made it very clear to my employer that money wasn't important to me in college; I simply wanted the experience and the opportunity to get my name out there. Was that naive? Probably. I paid my way through college on my own dime and incurred a small loan doing so, pinching pennies the whole way.

But that internship built me many of the connections that got me pretty well intertwined into the network I wanted to be in. I landed a brief freelancing position with the Palm Beach Post before being offered a full-time job elsewhere before I even graduated.

Now I have a job I love and will have my loans paid off before they even start accruing interest. Would I have gotten the job had I tried for a paid internship instead? Possibly. But I do think my recommendations were stronger because I worked my ass off for a year and a half without asking for a dime. So, from my perspective, an unpaid internship worked out just fine.

What a surprise, another recent grad who's was willing to work for free. Are you willing to work 80 hours and get paid for 40 as well? To not take any money when it was offered was just foolish.

Let's face it, there are laws and rules regarding unpaid internships. Any decent editor would pounce on a big company in his/her area if those companies broke the law.

If that's the only way I thought I could keep a job, you bet your ass I'd be willing to work 80 hours and only get paid for 40. You do what you've got to do to make a living.

 

[JimmyHoward33]

Coming from the position of a recent college grad, I have no problem with unpaid internships. In fact, I worked an unpaid internship for the Rivals.com network for about a year and a half. Ultimately, it led to me getting access to the teams I covered, building a good portfolio and networking with other professionals in the industry who helped me land my first post-grad, full-time job.

In fact, several times I had the opportunity to get paid for the internship, but made it very clear to my employer that money wasn't important to me in college; I simply wanted the experience and the opportunity to get my name out there. Was that naive? Probably. I paid my way through college on my own dime and incurred a small loan doing so, pinching pennies the whole way.

But that internship built me many of the connections that got me pretty well intertwined into the network I wanted to be in. I landed a brief freelancing position with the Palm Beach Post before being offered a full-time job elsewhere before I even graduated.

Now I have a job I love and will have my loans paid off before they even start accruing interest. Would I have gotten the job had I tried for a paid internship instead? Possibly. But I do think my recommendations were stronger because I worked my ass off for a year and a half without asking for a dime. So, from my perspective, an unpaid internship worked out just fine.

What a surprise, another recent grad who's was willing to work for free. Are you willing to work 80 hours and get paid for 40 as well? To not take any money when it was offered was just foolish.

Let's face it, there are laws and rules regarding unpaid internships. Any decent editor would pounce on a big company in his/her area if those companies broke the law.

If that's the only way I thought I could keep a job, you bet your ass I'd be willing to work 80 hours and only get paid for 40. You do what you've got to do to make a living.

This is terribly naive. There are laws against you doing this, "just to make a living." Odds are, any company that's asking you to work 80 for 40 pay is not giving you a decent living. There are exceptions, but in those walks of life folks are well compensated for their sacrifices. In this business, they are not.

Frankly, this attitude among my peers scares the crap out me as a younger journalist. It doesn't behoove anyone to accept menial pay, expectations of commitment and work ethic that go way beyond that pay scale and just generally getting trampled on in hopes it'll lead to a "big break" so it'll all be worth it.

You get what you pay for, and we're allowing management to get Sony quality at Vizio prices.

 

[sgreenwell]

Coming from the position of a recent college grad, I have no problem with unpaid internships. In fact, I worked an unpaid internship for the Rivals.com network for about a year and a half. Ultimately, it led to me getting access to the teams I covered, building a good portfolio and networking with other professionals in the industry who helped me land my first post-grad, full-time job.

In fact, several times I had the opportunity to get paid for the internship, but made it very clear to my employer that money wasn't important to me in college; I simply wanted the experience and the opportunity to get my name out there. Was that naive? Probably. I paid my way through college on my own dime and incurred a small loan doing so, pinching pennies the whole way.

But that internship built me many of the connections that got me pretty well intertwined into the network I wanted to be in. I landed a brief freelancing position with the Palm Beach Post before being offered a full-time job elsewhere before I even graduated.

Now I have a job I love and will have my loans paid off before they even start accruing interest. Would I have gotten the job had I tried for a paid internship instead? Possibly. But I do think my recommendations were stronger because I worked my ass off for a year and a half without asking for a dime. So, from my perspective, an unpaid internship worked out just fine.

What a surprise, another recent grad who's was willing to work for free. Are you willing to work 80 hours and get paid for 40 as well? To not take any money when it was offered was just foolish.

Let's face it, there are laws and rules regarding unpaid internships. Any decent editor would pounce on a big company in his/her area if those companies broke the law.

If that's the only way I thought I could keep a job, you bet your ass I'd be willing to work 80 hours and only get paid for 40. You do what you've got to do to make a living.

This is terribly naive. There are laws against you doing this, "just to make a living." Odds are, any company that's asking you to work 80 for 40 pay is not giving you a decent living. There are exceptions, but in those walks of life folks are well compensated for their sacrifices. In this business, they are not.

Frankly, this attitude among my peers scares the crap out me as a younger journalist. It doesn't behoove anyone to accept menial pay, expectations of commitment and work ethic that go way beyond that pay scale and just generally getting trampled on in hopes it'll lead to a "big break" so it'll all be worth it.

You get what you pay for, and we're allowing management to get Sony quality at Vizio prices.

I agree. I'm also young-ish at 27, and if you don't set what you're worth, nobody will ever meet you at that. I'm normally OK with the idea of doing an unpaid internship, except in a lot of shops, you essentially are doing the job of a full-time employee and not getting a ton of oversight.

 

[Thomas Goldkamp]

I'm in total agreement that it's not right, and it's not fair. But that wasn't the question that was asked me. The question was whether I'd be willing to do it. And like I said in my response, if that's what it takes for me to have a job right now and be able to support myself, then that's what I'm going to do.

Is it the ideal situation? Of course not. I'd be a complete moron to think otherwise.

At the end of the day, though, I chose journalism as a career. I'm the one that has to live with that. Unfortunately, right now, the reality of the industry is that our skills are undervalued because the industry hasn't found a good way to monetize our work. Until it does, the market for journalists seeking jobs is going to have far more very qualified, out-of-work journalists than it should.

As a young journalist, right now the only edge I have is that I'm willing to outwork my competition. That's what it boils down to. I may not have the experience or the raw talent that others who have been around longer have, but you can be sure I'm going to use everything I can to give myself an edge and make myself employable. And if that means I work a little longer than 40 hours in a week, then so be it. I knew when I signed up that might be the case.

For the record, I don't work 80 hours a week.

 

[SoCalScribe]

On any given day at my shop you could go out to the parking lot and pick out the five nicest cars. Three of them likely belong to interns. Not losing a lot of sleep on the lack of pay for them at my place.

Gee, do you think the income of your interns' parents might have something to do with the fact that your internship is unpaid? I can't understand why you are pretending not to be aware of this connection.

Pay your interns and you might get some talented kids who have to do things like not own a car, use public transit, eat ramen noodles, live in an overcrowded apartment in a bad neighborhood...oh, and work their ass off in hopes of making a life for themselves.

 

[SoCalScribe]

As for Slate, I am a very diligent reader, but they are prone to a certain arrogance. Reminds me of a recent New Yorker article about the taxi drivers' union written by someone whose first name in her byline was "Lizzie" and was self-described as a Manhattan resident, earning above-average income, being female and often taking taxis due to inappropriate (read: expensive and stylish) shoe choices.

Now THAT is someone deserving of an unpaid internship.