Shoeless Joe Jackson

Sports Journalists Forum – Media, Newsroom & Reporting Talk

Help Support Sports Journalists Forum:

Should Joe Jackson be allowed into the Hall of Fame?


  • Total voters
    49
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Messages
8,068
Today would have been Shoeless Joe Jackson's 116th birthday. I am curious how people here feel about letting Shoeless Joe into the Hall of Fame. If you have a definite opinion on the matter I would also like to see your reasons.
 
Nope.

He may not have thrown any games, nor did his excellent play contribute to his team's throwing of games.

But he took money, and he had an excellent chance to stop the fix in its tracks. But he failed to stand up to Gandil and Risberg ("Swede is a hard guy") when approached, and he failed to notify the proper authorities in time to get the conspirators suspended before the first pitch was thrown.
 
Yes.
Point One: Statute of Limitations. Not on throwing the games; Gandil and Felsch and Risberg are out, permanently, although they never would have been considered anyway, IMHO. But for knowing about it and not reporting it? Given the level of mistrust and the outright duplicity of White Sox management, and given the fact that that hopeless old vampire Charles Comiskey is in there -- and he had a responsibility to bring what he believed to Ban Johnson, but wouldn't do it, because they hated each other -- then, certainly, 80-odd years is long enough. Also, clear Buck Weaver's name.
Point Two: Ted Williams would agree with me. So would Babe Ruth.
 
given the fact that that hopeless old vampire Charles Comiskey is in there --  and he had a responsibility to bring what he believed to Ban Johnson, but wouldn't do it, because they hated each other

I'm not sure I follow.

Comiskey DID bring it to Johnson's attention shortly after the series started. It was Johnson, because of his hatred of Comiskey, who refused to pursue it. "That's the whelp of a beaten cur," he told Comiskey.
 
The most pathetic part of it all was Baseball Magazine's attempts at the time to blame the media for the scandal. Some things never change I guess. F.C. Lane was the Jason Whitlock of his era.
 
BTExpress said:
given the fact that that hopeless old vampire Charles Comiskey is in there --  and he had a responsibility to bring what he believed to Ban Johnson, but wouldn't do it, because they hated each other

I'm not sure I follow.

Comiskey DID bring it to Johnson's attention shortly after the series started. It was Johnson, because of his hatred of Comiskey, who refused to pursue it. "That's the whelp of a beaten cur," he told Comiskey.

But if you're going to keep Jackson out because he took money, knew, and did nothing, then don;t you have to boot Johnson and Comiskey, too?
And I stand by my point -- given his offenses, which were venial in the great scope of things, he's done his time. Put him up for a vote and let's see if he gets in or not.
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. Product prices and availability are accurate as of the date/time indicated and are subject to change.
if pete rose ever gets in but shoeless joe stays out, the hall should shut its doors in shame.
 
I feel the same way about Rose.
Let's settle the thing once and for all. Put him up for a vote and let people make their cases. What do people think the over/under number would be on columns pro-and-con on that issue? The debate would be healthy.
 
Fenian_Bastard said:
I feel the same way about Rose.
Let's settle the thing once and for all. Put him up for a vote and let people make their cases. What do people think the over/under number would be on columns pro-and-con on that issue? The debate would be healthy.

Do you think that anybody should ever be punished for any action, at any time, in any realm? Jeez.
 
If Shoeless Joe had any heirs who gave a ****, his exclusion probably would be challenged the minute baseball loses its antitrust exemption.

But my personal feeling is ... put him in. His biggest champion was Teddy Toothpick.
 
This issue was decided a long time ago.  Shoeless Joe was on the ballot for decades and never came close to being elected.  Banned players weren't ineligible for the HOF since 1991.
 
More hideous than Ben Seaver said:
This issue was decided a long time ago.  Shoeless Joe was on the ballot for decades and never came close to being elected.  Banned players weren't ineligible for the HOF since 1991.

you can always change rules. it would take them 10 minutes to craft a rule that puts jackson on the ballot but leaves rose off.
 
Comiskey SUSPECTED something was up . . . after it had already started.

Jackson KNEW. Before the first pitch was thrown.

That's the biggest difference to me.

And if Landis had decided Comiskey and Johnson were culpable and decided to boot them, that would have been his prerogative. But that would have been a lot on the plate of a first-year commissioner. And I'm sure Comiskey would have put up one hell of a legal fight if he had been banned for not responding to rumors and innuendo in a prompt manner.
 
BTExpress said:
Comiskey SUSPECTED something was up . . . after it had already started.

Jackson KNEW. Before the first pitch was thrown.

That's the biggest difference to me.

And if Landis had decided Comiskey and Johnson were culpable and decided to boot them, that would have been his prerogative. But that would have been a lot on the plate of a first-year commissioner. And I'm sure Comiskey would have put up one hell of a legal fight if he had been banned for not responding to rumors and innuendo in a prompt manner.

And, as I said, he's paid the price for the crime of knowing-but-not-coming-forward, and Comiskey has paid no price for being a power-mad gombeen who helped create the context within which a fix not only was possible, but likely. Is it time yet to talk about Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb?
The "ban" in 1991 -- when the BBWAA rolled over for the commissioner's office like good pet doggies so the Rose question wouldn't come up for a public vote -- formalized what already existed. Anybody know the most votes SJJ got during his time of formal eligibility?
 
My turn to weigh in ;D:

Let's get one thing clear first: I think the Hall of Fame should be based almost completely on on-field performance. I think the Hall of Fame selections are there to honor the greatest players in the game (managers, umpires, pioneer/legendary executives, too), and the museum in Cooperstown is for fans and students of the game, not the whimsical guardianship of Major League Baseball or, heaven forbid, the BBWAA.

IMO, the "integrity, sportsmanship, character" clause in the HOF voting is, at best, irrelevant and, at worst, hypocritical. There are too many persons voted into the Hall for whom this clause is completely overlooked, for popularity reasons or otherwise. And frankly, it doesn't matter anyway. As fans, we overlook all kinds of questionable characters as long as they help our teams win -- hell, just look at Pete Rose, the player. The teams overlook this stuff, too. Look at a situation like Brett Myers -- accused of beating his wife, yet allowed to start the very next day. Yes, off-the-field character matters much to MLB ... NOT. So it shouldn't matter to the Hall of Fame (which, fyi, is a separate entity from MLB -- MLB does not run the Hall or make its rules. The Hall could reverse its 1991 rule not allowing "ineligibles" to be elected and MLB couldn't do anything about it.)

You need more examples that "character counts"?

Ty Cobb (also an avowed racist, who may or may not have killed a man in self-defense/cold blood) and Tris Speaker almost surely fixed a late-season game in 1919 between their two teams (along with Joe Wood), yet it was hushed up by Ban Johnson when it came out years later, then absolved by Judge Landis, and the two (still playing at the time) left the game quietly, but without punishment. They're both in the Hall ... and rightfully so. (Johnson and Landis are in the Hall, as well.)

Leo Durocher (not exactly standing at the door of integrity and character, either) hung out with gamblers all his life, was suspended for the entire 1947 season because of that, MLB likely had evidence that he was betting on many sports (baseball among them? who knows?), and he's in the Hall ... also rightfully so.

There is much more evidence than not that points to Jackson (who was actually a fairly decent man, personally) playing his absolute best in the 1919 World Series, despite accepting $5,000 for the "big fix." There is no debate about that: Jackson did take the money. Did he earn it? That's part of the debate, but not the important part.

(I'm not going to get into the details of the "Eight Men Out" story here, but the crux of my argument would be this: Judge Landis' punishments were the same, even though the players' crimes were not. Landis, btw, had a reputation for getting his outlandish decisions overturned when he was a judge in federal court. But he was free to do whatever he wanted in MLB, so, hey, if he wants to ban just eight of 'em for life and overlook other players who had done the same (fixing was fairly prevalent in the game then, but it was also an accepted part of the game), he could. And if he wanted to overlook the owners' complicity in trying to pull a Richard Nixon and go out of their way to cover up the big 1919 Series fix for a year until Cicotte finally confessed anyway, then he could do that, too.)

So my opinion is: You can't keep the best players in the game out of the Hall of Fame. That does a disservice to the game and insults the public's intelligence who realize that a Hall of Fame without the all-time hits leader and the third-highest batter (and we'll see what happens with McGwire when he becomes eligible in 2007) is not really a legitimate Hall of Fame at all.

If MLB wants to keep Pete Rose out of the league completely, banning him from any coaching or managing or even instructional or promotional job in the majors, they've got every right to. Hell, they've got every reason to. Ban him from the game, that's fine. I have no problem with that. He broke the rules and he should be punished. Punished for life, even. Don't let him earn a living off baseball, as they govern it. That's perfectly acceptable.

But the Hall of Fame is not about MLB. It's about the greatest players in the history of the game. And Pete Rose and Joe Jackson are among the greatest players in the history of the game -- and really, there's no argument against either of those claims. They should be in the Hall.

If you don't want to have anything about them in the museum itself (also separate from the actual Hall of Fame), as more punishment, fine. If you want to add an asterisk at the bottom of their Hall of Fame plaque with "banned for life" or "indicted for steroid use" or some such designation, go right ahead. But you can't deny their place among the game's greats. And you can't deny them a place in the Hall of Fame. That's insulting to any baseball fan who watched them play. They were Hall of Famers -- put them in the Hall.
 
BTExpress said:
Comiskey SUSPECTED something was up . . . after it had already started.

Jackson KNEW. Before the first pitch was thrown.

That's the biggest difference to me.

And if Landis had decided Comiskey and Johnson were culpable and decided to boot them, that would have been his prerogative. But that would have been a lot on the plate of a first-year commissioner. And I'm sure Comiskey would have put up one hell of a legal fight if he had been banned for not responding to rumors and innuendo in a prompt manner.

Again, I said I'm not getting into this here. Read "Burying the Black Sox," a recent book by SABR member and Black Sox expert extraordinaire Gene Carney, for more on this.

But one point of clarification: Comiskey KNEW as much as Jackson KNEW ... and possibly more ... even before the Series began. Everyone knew. Comiskey himself was told by Hugh Fullerton (with Pirates owner Barney Dreyfuss present), he was told by other writers, he was told by a gambler, even, that the fix was in.

He KNEW. He just chose not to do anything about it. Kid Gleason knew, Ban Johnson knew (and knew more than anyone). Everyone knew. It was a bungled fix from the beginning.

(That's why Landis' directive to Buck Weaver about reporting to proper authorities was a sham. There was nobody he could tell who didn't already know. Carney's book has footnotes and evidence -- check it out. The entire story is too complicated to make clear-cut judgments against anybody involved. You've also got to consider the context of their era -- fixing was common. It was part of the game. Owners turned a blind eye because their profits were rising, same as they did in the mid-1990s with steroids.)
 
I saw this topic and thought, "This is buckweaver's dream thread right here." Judging by his essay, I guess I was right.
 
Not making an editorial observation just saying - but I'm still amazed by the fact the Joe Jackson is STILL the all-time batting average leader for BOTH the Chicago White Sox (.340 career mark) and the Cleveland Indians (.375). That's incredible!
 
Lou Merloni said:
Not making an editorial observation just saying - but I'm still amazed by the fact the Joe Jackson is STILL the all-time batting average leader for BOTH the Chicago White Sox (.340 career mark) and the Cleveland Indians (.375). That's incredible!

Looks like he's going to hold both records for a while longer, too.
 
I would say no, you don't let him in. But if you do let him in, then you have to let Pete Rose in too.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top