Question about Steve Bartman

[Cousin Jeffrey]

Again, I understand all this.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that captain jackass is too busy listening to Frankie Goes to Hollywood on that damn 1980s walkman to get the hell out of the way.

he was listening to the game, as a lot of hardcore fans do. poor guy. every dork in chicago dressed up as him for halloween that year. easy costume, one sure to limit any chance of a girl going home with you.

the media didn't help him out the next two days after that. i think mariotti referred to him as a dork in print.

 

[golfnut8924]

Again, I understand all this.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that captain jackass is too busy listening to Frankie Goes to Hollywood on that damn 1980s walkman to get the hell out of the way.

he was listening to the game, as a lot of hardcore fans do. poor guy. every dork in chicago dressed up as him for halloween that year. easy costume, one sure to limit any chance of a girl going home with you.

the media didn't help him out the next two days after that. i think mariotti referred to him as a dork in print.

Haha Mariotti calling someone else a dork. That's rich.

 

[bumpy mcgee]

I think either Pierre or Castillo hit the ground ball Gonzalez booted, so the Cubs don't get two there anyway. Also, Cubs were up in Game 7 and Dusty wouldn't pull Wood (hi-yo) when it was obivous he didn't have it.
Farnsworth put more gas on the fire in Game 6.
And as a note there has to be something more interesting than Bartman in the last 30 years to do a sports doc.

 

[RickStain]

That ground ball to Gonzalez was hit very hard. I think there's a good chance they get two.

I may just be hanging out with a higher class of Cubs fan, but I don't really know any who blame Bartman. If anything, they get sick and tired of hearing about him every time the Cubs play on national TV.

 

[Shaggy]

Castillo hit the Bartman ball. Later in the inning, D-Lee stroked a double if I remember correctly.

In hindsight, that 2003 Marlins team was very, very good.

 

[Shaggy]

The 2003 postseason was fantastic. Just a few days before the Bartman incident, Don Zimmer attacks Pedro Martinez and Martinez throws him to the ground.

A few days after the Bartman incident, Aaron ****ing Boone.

Then Clemens retired. Kind of.

 

[Some Guy]

Again, I understand all this.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that captain jackass is too busy listening to Frankie Goes to Hollywood on that damn 1980s walkman to get the hell out of the way.

You say you understand this, but you don't. Bartman had nothing to do with the Cubs' collapse. Not a damn thing, you understand. The poor guy was one of 3-4 reaching for a ****ing foul ball, and the only one unlucky enough to touch it.

Moises Alou proceeds to react like a petulant 2-year old, and a fanbase that had previously blamed its teams inept-ness on a long-dead goat can now spew its bile at a real-live human being who did exactly what EVERYONE ELSE around him was doing.

****, man. Bartman isn't the reason the Cubs lost. The Cubs are the reason the Cubs lost.

Again, I know. What I'm saying is, if Bartman does what he's supposed to do and gets the hell out of the way, nobody is pissed at him, even if the Cubs do collapse anyway.

I'm not a crazy fan. I don't want Bartman dead. But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Saying the Bartman play had nothing to do with the Cubs' collapse is just as silly as putting all the blame on him. I mean, the refs in the Colorado-Missouri "fifth-down" game weren't the only reason Mizzou lost. I mean, they *could* have stopped Colorado on the second fourth down and still won the game, right? Second chances are a *****, though.

 

[kingcreole]

And we know for a fact Alou would have caught the ball?

 

[JR]

For the same reason Bob Stanley's wild pitch is forgotten in Game 6 of the 1986 World Series. The Buckner error was more spectacular. But you can, and I always will, argue that Stanley's 55-foot-slider was the real killer for the Sox that night.

It was a passed ball.

Gedman should have blocked it

The real villain in the Game Six cluster**** was Calvin Schiraldi.

He came in with a two run lead, got two outs and then **** the bed.

If you look at the game film, he was a deer caught in the headlights after the singles by Carter and Mitchell. You ****ing knew Knight was going to get a hit.

I taped that game and have watched the 10th inning a dozen times.

Oh, and Boston choked in game seven.

 

[buckweaver]

But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Oh, bull. That's a fabricated justification for self-absorbed Cubs fans who still want to place a modicum of blame on some guy who bought a freaking ticket to the game.

50 percent of people in the stands go after any foul ball they can reasonably get their hands on, because it's a thrill to catch a foul ball in a major league game. The other 50 percent are ducking out of the way. That's it.

There is NO rule, unwritten or otherwise, that says a fan should "know" to get out of the way when he's sitting in the front row and it might possibly help his team if a fielder can make an improbable catch on a ball heading into the stands. That's stupid, and a completely unreasonable expectation to put on anyone who is not participating in the game.

Bartman deserves NO blame whatsoever for the Cubs blowing a multi-freaking-run lead with 6 outs to go. That's ludicrous.

 

[LWillhite]

I think either Pierre or Castillo hit the ground ball Gonzalez booted...

Just checked on baseball-reference.com. Miggy Cabrera hit the Alex Gonzalez E-6 ball.

Other nuggets from hitting that web site:
1) The Marlins didn't spend a single day in first place of the NL East that year, but won the whole stinkin' thing.
2) When the Marlins started the eighth inning of Game 6 trailing 3-0, the Cubs' win expectancy was 95 percent.
3) Juan Pierre's 1-out double dropped it to 92 percent.
3) After the Bartman incident, Luis Castillo drew a walk to give the Marlins runners on first and third with 1 out. The Cubs' win expectancy was still 86 percent.
4) After I-Rod's RBI single and Gonzalez' E-6 loaded the bases, the Cubs' win expectancy was still 68 percent.
5) The odds didn't swing to the Marlins' favor until Derrek Lee followed up with the game-tying 2-run double that chased Prior.
6) By the time the Marlins finished that 8-run inning, they were 98 percent favorites to win.

7) If everything happened exactly as it played out -- except that Alou catches the "Bartman Ball" -- the Cubs either have a 3-2 lead or a 3-3 tie going into the bottom of the eighth. The discrepancy depends on whether you think a 20-year-old Miggy Cabrera (a much skinnier dude then) scores from first on Lee's double with two outs.

 

[Sea Bass]

Anybody have footage of them blowing up the Steve Bartman ball at some bar in Chicago? I've been looking for it (not tirelessly, mind you) but haven't found it. I remember thinking it was hilarious at the time.

 

[Some Guy]

But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Oh, bull. That's a fabricated justification for self-absorbed Cubs fans who still want to place a modicum of blame on some guy who bought a freaking ticket to the game.

50 percent of people in the stands go after any foul ball they can reasonably get their hands on, because it's a thrill to catch a foul ball in a major league game. The other 50 percent are ducking out of the way. That's it.

There is NO rule, unwritten or otherwise, that says a fan should "know" to get out of the way when he's sitting in the front row and it might possibly help his team if a fielder can make an improbable catch on a ball heading into the stands. That's stupid, and a completely unreasonable expectation to put on anyone who is not participating in the game.

Bartman deserves NO blame whatsoever for the Cubs blowing a multi-freaking-run lead with 6 outs to go. That's ludicrous.

Well, I would have known to get the hell out of the way. Cubs would have been better served to give me Bartman's seat.

 

[Some Guy]

And we know for a fact Alou would have caught the ball?

Well, no. Maybe he has a heart attack before he gets there. Maybe a sniper perched on one of the Wrigleyville rooftops guns him down. Maybe Jeffrey Maier pushes Bartman out of the way and knocks the ball away himself. We'll never know, but that's kind of beside the point.

Look, it's not right to villfy Bartman. I know that. There were 100 other things the Cubs could have done to win that game and that series despite that play.

But to act as if that play had nothing to do with it is a pretty disingenuous form of revisionist history. Because Bartman DID interfere with what was otherwise a fairly routine play for a Major League outfielder, and he DID cost the Cubs an out.

 

[steveu]

But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Oh, bull. That's a fabricated justification for self-absorbed Cubs fans who still want to place a modicum of blame on some guy who bought a freaking ticket to the game.

50 percent of people in the stands go after any foul ball they can reasonably get their hands on, because it's a thrill to catch a foul ball in a major league game. The other 50 percent are ducking out of the way. That's it.

There is NO rule, unwritten or otherwise, that says a fan should "know" to get out of the way when he's sitting in the front row and it might possibly help his team if a fielder can make an improbable catch on a ball heading into the stands. That's stupid, and a completely unreasonable expectation to put on anyone who is not participating in the game.

Bartman deserves NO blame whatsoever for the Cubs blowing a multi-freaking-run lead with 6 outs to go. That's ludicrous.

Yet there is a reason why the PA announcer always says some form of "Never interfere with a ball in play" before every game. Fans who do this are subject to arrest, and they should be. If a ball is in play, you DON'T GO AFTER IT.

That said, I echo everyone's comments about Game 6. The Cubs could have won Game 7 but did not. The Cards could have won Game 7 in 1985 after Denkinger's infamous blown call but did not.

One more thing, and it's kind of off topic: What the **** is CB Bucknor doing working a postseason series? That guy doesn't even deserve a uniform in the regular season.

 

[Shaggy]

But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Oh, bull. That's a fabricated justification for self-absorbed Cubs fans who still want to place a modicum of blame on some guy who bought a freaking ticket to the game.

50 percent of people in the stands go after any foul ball they can reasonably get their hands on, because it's a thrill to catch a foul ball in a major league game. The other 50 percent are ducking out of the way. That's it.

There is NO rule, unwritten or otherwise, that says a fan should "know" to get out of the way when he's sitting in the front row and it might possibly help his team if a fielder can make an improbable catch on a ball heading into the stands. That's stupid, and a completely unreasonable expectation to put on anyone who is not participating in the game.

Bartman deserves NO blame whatsoever for the Cubs blowing a multi-freaking-run lead with 6 outs to go. That's ludicrous.

Yet there is a reason why the PA announcer always says some form of "Never interfere with a ball in play" before every game. Fans who do this are subject to arrest, and they should be. If a ball is in play, you DON'T GO AFTER IT.

It wasn't in play. It was out of play. Moises Alou was entering fan territory to try and catch the ball. Bartman didn't break a single rule.

 

[kingcreole]

But anyone with an ounce of self-awareness would know -- should know -- to get the **** out of the way.

Oh, bull. That's a fabricated justification for self-absorbed Cubs fans who still want to place a modicum of blame on some guy who bought a freaking ticket to the game.

50 percent of people in the stands go after any foul ball they can reasonably get their hands on, because it's a thrill to catch a foul ball in a major league game. The other 50 percent are ducking out of the way. That's it.

There is NO rule, unwritten or otherwise, that says a fan should "know" to get out of the way when he's sitting in the front row and it might possibly help his team if a fielder can make an improbable catch on a ball heading into the stands. That's stupid, and a completely unreasonable expectation to put on anyone who is not participating in the game.

Bartman deserves NO blame whatsoever for the Cubs blowing a multi-freaking-run lead with 6 outs to go. That's ludicrous.

Yet there is a reason why the PA announcer always says some form of "Never interfere with a ball in play" before every game. Fans who do this are subject to arrest, and they should be. If a ball is in play, you DON'T GO AFTER IT.

It wasn't in play. It was out of play. Moises Alou was entering fan territory to try and catch the ball. Bartman didn't break a single rule.

You are correct. Had Bartman interfered, the batter would have been called out. So long as the ball is not hovering over the field of play, any fan has every right to go for it. Just like Bartman and the other fans who were lunging at the ball.

 

[kingcreole]

And we know for a fact Alou would have caught the ball?

Well, no. Maybe he has a heart attack before he gets there. Maybe a sniper perched on one of the Wrigleyville rooftops guns him down. Maybe Jeffrey Maier pushes Bartman out of the way and knocks the ball away himself. We'll never know, but that's kind of beside the point.

Look, it's not right to villfy Bartman. I know that. There were 100 other things the Cubs could have done to win that game and that series despite that play.

But to act as if that play had nothing to do with it is a pretty disingenuous form of revisionist history. Because Bartman DID interfere with what was otherwise a fairly routine play for a Major League outfielder, and he DID cost the Cubs an out.

No he didn't cost the Cubs an out. You don't know Alou would have caught the ball and Bartman did nothing wrong.

You sound just like a Cardinal fan bitching about Don Denkinger.

 

[Some Guy]

And we know for a fact Alou would have caught the ball?

Well, no. Maybe he has a heart attack before he gets there. Maybe a sniper perched on one of the Wrigleyville rooftops guns him down. Maybe Jeffrey Maier pushes Bartman out of the way and knocks the ball away himself. We'll never know, but that's kind of beside the point.

Look, it's not right to villfy Bartman. I know that. There were 100 other things the Cubs could have done to win that game and that series despite that play.

But to act as if that play had nothing to do with it is a pretty disingenuous form of revisionist history. Because Bartman DID interfere with what was otherwise a fairly routine play for a Major League outfielder, and he DID cost the Cubs an out.

No he didn't cost the Cubs an out. You don't know Alou would have caught the ball and Bartman did nothing wrong.

You sound just like a Cardinal fan bitching about Don Denkinger.

If the stands are empty, that's a pretty routine play. I'm not buying the "you don't know Alou wouldn't have caught it" line. I mean, maybe Armageddon happens while the ball is still in flight and the world ends before Alou has a chance to make the play.

In that case, I guess Bartman is off the hook.

I'm just saying, if I were Bartman, I would have known to back off. I figured most people would, too. But apparently, I'm some sort of know-it-all super fan.

 

[buckweaver]

How many foul balls have you caught in your life, Some Guy?

You really think you'd have the presence of mind, when a fly ball's coming toward you, to think, "Hmm, the fielder has a chance to make a play; I better back off" (of course, where do you go if there's people on either side of you, presumably some of whom are going after the ball, as well; and seats barring you from doing anything but leaning backward, but I digress)?

If so, then yes, you're a super fan. But it's ludicrous to expect anyone else to think that way.

And, no, it's not a routine play. It's a very, very good play if Alou reaches into the stands to catch it -- which he would have had to do on that play -- but it's not routine, even for a major leaguer.