Pope backtracking on condom statement

[Dick Whitman]

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If people withheld fellow American citizens' constitutional rights because of the writings of Kris Kringle, I would get just as angry.


If people wanted to teach that Santa created the earth in six days instead of basic cosmology, I'd attack Santa.

If American politicians called on the promises of Father Time to guide our enviormental policy over the next 20 years, I'd have a bone to pick with Pere Noel.

This isn't a ****ing benign institution. People like me don't attack the Amish or the Mennonites. I grew up around Mennonites. They are of firm faith. They live their faith and don't try to take over the country, allowing each man to either come to God or to reject him.

When someone has the pull that the Pope does, when he has the power of life and death -- and the issue of condoms in Africa is a life and death situation -- he is going beyond having a simple and meek faith and playing the role of God himself.

And when the Catholic Church inevitably reverses its finding on condoms in the next 20 years, as it has all important social and scientific issues over the past millenia from slavery to heliocentrism to civil rights to inquisitions, what will be its answer to the millions who died of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa?

"Oops. Looks like God changed his mind."

Marriage is now a constitutional right?

Yes, it is.

 

[deskslave]

The insinuation that without a Bible to set us on our way, people wouldn't have figured out that killing each other and stealing each other's stuff is a bad idea should be offensive to anyone capable of rational thought.

 

[Guy_Incognito]

It looks like there was reason to believe the Catholic Church was finally moving into the 21st century. Alas, it was not to be.

You're being awfully ****ing generous with the 21st century designation. The church needs to crawl into the 20th century first.

Why exactly should the church "move into the 21st Century"?

Truth doesn't morph into whatever the culture decides is acceptable.

No?

Not really apples to apples. None of these have to do with the church, or any idea of a divine "truth" that, I assume, Hondo is alluding to.

That's not saying that the church hasn't changed over time, or that it hasn't made changes for the better over time, because obviously it has, just that I don't really feel like the pics make an applicable point.

Institutions should, from time to time, re-evaluate whether their "truth" still holds up.

Hence, the photos are applicable.

Which would be like saying that showing photos of grisly rape and murder scenes would be applicable in teaching your children not to steal candy from the store. You may technically be making a sound point, but you're using an extreme, manipulative example.

My two cents (not that anyone asked): In this day and age, we are all so desensitized to sex and believe opposing pre-marital sex is silly (sometimes including yours truly, a practicing Catholic), thus we can't fathom how taking a stance against something that can make sex safe holds any water. But I think you have to put yourself in the Church's position, which teaches that denying life is a sin. Thus contraception of any sort is a sin. This seems to rile people up, but to that I say 'Ignore the Church's teaching then.' It's not like the pope is ramming his agenda down your throat, he's counseling Catholics around the world. His opinion gets wide coverage due to his position and the sheer size of the Church, so people perceive that to mean that he's lecturing every single one of us. And that "lecture" goes against their thinking, so it becomes easy for them to call the Church heartless and out-of-touch. However, the Church is very much in line with what it teaches and believes, it's just easier and cooler to put Catholics down. What amazes me is that, again, my personal belief, it seems that fundamentalist Christians seem far more overbearing and unreasonable than Catholics do about such social issues, but there is something about that big pointy hat that really boils people's blood.

You're of course right on this, but they really opened this all up with Vatican II. If anything is open for reexamination, and the grounds for that reexamination aren't clearly articulated (are they? I don't think so, but I don't know Catholicism very well), then people feel that they can justifiably question anything & it's hard to explain why they can't.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

It looks like there was reason to believe the Catholic Church was finally moving into the 21st century. Alas, it was not to be.

You're being awfully ****ing generous with the 21st century designation. The church needs to crawl into the 20th century first.

Why exactly should the church "move into the 21st Century"?

Truth doesn't morph into whatever the culture decides is acceptable.

No?

Good hit. It's called growing up.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Hate to say it, schiez, but you are being quite intolerant of the views of a whole hell of a lot of people. Not saying they should be able to push their views on anybody else. They shouldn't. But we shouldn't be disrespecting their beliefs, either.

I'm not being intolerant of other people's views, or at least that's not my intent. I'm being intolerant of organized religions as a whole and think we'd be much better as a society if people would just do their own thing and stay out of other people's business/lives.

This touches on the key argument, which is : you can believe whatever you want, but don't impose
the results of your private beliefs on my life. You don't have the right, in the vast majority of cases.
And this is why so many people are fed up with the Hard Right, because of the social-conservative
package hiding behind all the economic rhetoric.

 

[Captain_Kirk]

It looks like there was reason to believe the Catholic Church was finally moving into the 21st century. Alas, it was not to be.

You're being awfully ****ing generous with the 21st century designation. The church needs to crawl into the 20th century first.

I was thinking more the 15th century. Or at least post-Norman Conquest.

Oh well, maybe some day....

 

[outofplace]

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith.

Never even hinted at this nonsense, not even close, learn to comprehend first and stop talking out of your ass and maybe this discussion has a chance to move forward.

Actually, what we really need is for you to try to have a discussion without the personal attacks for once. I highly doubt you can manage.

Your version is one of absolutes. Others have beliefs that have room to accept that we don't have all the answers. They allow for questioning.

So yes, you did hint at exactly what I said.

No, I didn't.

I never once said or approached or even hinted that you need to believe the same things I do and if you don't, you aren't going all the way with your faith.

Not once, yet you, being the mush head you are, couldn't comprehend what I said and decided that you'd rather talk out of your ass than keep quiet until you actually could comprehend it fully.

I'll try it again.

What I said was this:

If you don't believe that whatever it is YOU believe is the absolute truth, then why are you bothering in the first place?

If you truly believe that Jesus is the way to heaven and the only way to heaven, why would you then say "well of course, there are other ways, too."

It makes no sense.

Yes, you did. You are saying that if somebody doesn't believe in the way that you do, they are wrong.

I understand what you are saying just fine. You, unfortunately, don't even fully comprehend the words you are typing, much less those of others.

 

[Stitch]

Three things people shouldn't discuss on this board: politics, religion and sports.

The debate of whether religion is for the weak-minded comes down to this, some try to prove with all of their might that God exists, and some go the opposite way. Most of the world lives in the middle where we just want a warm bed to sleep in, food to eat, and be safe.

 

[outofplace]

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith.

Never even hinted at this nonsense, not even close, learn to comprehend first and stop talking out of your ass and maybe this discussion has a chance to move forward.

Actually, what we really need is for you to try to have a discussion without the personal attacks for once. I highly doubt you can manage.

Your version is one of absolutes. Others have beliefs that have room to accept that we don't have all the answers. They allow for questioning.

So yes, you did hint at exactly what I said.

No, I didn't.

I never once said or approached or even hinted that you need to believe the same things I do and if you don't, you aren't going all the way with your faith.

Not once, yet you, being the mush head you are, couldn't comprehend what I said and decided that you'd rather talk out of your ass than keep quiet until you actually could comprehend it fully.

I'll try it again.

What I said was this:

If you don't believe that whatever it is YOU believe is the absolute truth, then why are you bothering in the first place?

If you truly believe that Jesus is the way to heaven and the only way to heaven, why would you then say "well of course, there are other ways, too."

It makes no sense.

Yes, you did. You are saying that if somebody doesn't believe in the way that you do, they are wrong.

I understand what you are saying just fine. You, unfortunately, don't even fully comprehend the words you are typing, much less those of others.

I think what he's saying is if you're going to believe in something, whatever it is, why wouldn't you believe it with every fiber of your being?

No, what he is saying is that something is wrong with anybody who has questions.

 

[AD]

funny: i thought edwin was all in favor...

 

[SoCalScribe]

I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

So, can I knock you for sharing yours? Just saying...

 

[poindexter]

Here's a priest who hired a gunman to quiet a boy he diddled.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/23/texas.priest.arrested/

what a godawful organization.

 

[schiezainc]

I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

So, can I knock you for sharing yours? Just saying...

You sure can.

But, then again, this is a topic on a message board. I'd say it's a little bit different since the entire point of this board is discussing the topics that come up but, sure, you could knock me if you wanted. I'd understand.

I would like to think that this is different than my going into a church and screaming "You're all idiots!" or sitting in my office, randomly saying that anyone who believes in God is worthless but, hey, to each his own.

 

[Starman]

Here's a priest who hired a gunman to quiet a boy he diddled.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/11/23/texas.priest.arrested/

what a godawful organization.

The church hierarchy, all the way up to Herr Ratzie, will undoubtedly be shocked, shocked.