Pope backtracking on condom statement

[Brian]

So, the Pope pulled out of his previous sexual position?

 

[LongTimeListener]

It looks like there was reason to believe the Catholic Church was finally moving into the 21st century. Alas, it was not to be.

You're being awfully ****ing generous with the 21st century designation. The church needs to crawl into the 20th century first.

Why exactly should the church "move into the 21st Century"?

Truth doesn't morph into whatever the culture decides is acceptable.

In this case, the church would at least be updating itself to match the views of a large large majority of its own patrons. It also would be standing behind its missionaries who do great and selfless work in the developing world, and who know the importance of population control.

The church has always seemed to be playing a little game on this issue, knowing it can stay morally correct because nobody pays any attention to this little part anyway.

 

[outofplace]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Hate to say it, schiez, but you are being quite intolerant of the views of a whole hell of a lot of people. Not saying they should be able to push their views on anybody else. They shouldn't. But we shouldn't be disrespecting their beliefs, either.

 

[SpeedTchr]

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Bottom line -- if you're not Catholic, what do you care what the Pope says? I'm not, I don't.

 

[heyabbott]

The Pope is in favor of condoms when priests bugger young boys, not to curtail the spread of disease but to prevent the collection of evidence

 

[schiezainc]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Hate to say it, schiez, but you are being quite intolerant of the views of a whole hell of a lot of people. Not saying they should be able to push their views on anybody else. They shouldn't. But we shouldn't be disrespecting their beliefs, either.

I'm not being intolerant of other people's views, or at least that's not my intent. I'm being intolerant of organized religions as a whole and think we'd be much better as a society if people would just do their own thing and stay out of other people's business/lives.

 

[zagoshe]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Why would you believe in anything (spiritually speaking) if you don't believe it is absolute?

If you are from a church which believes in John 3 as the way to heaven (that you must believe in Christ and accept him in your heart as your savior and become born again and repent from your sins in order to get to heaven), why would you then say "well that is only for me!"

If you truly believe you must repent from your sins to get to heaven and that Jesus is the savior and only way to heaven - why would you not believe that is absolute and applies to all?

I mean if you don't believe it is absolute then why bother at all?

That makes absolutely no sense at all, which is sort of what I've come to expect from atheists/agnostics because, well, they make no sense at all.

On one hand, they shout from the mountain tops that God doesn't exist, then on the other they spend every waking moment trying to prove he doesn't exist.

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If you truly believe he doesn't exist, why do you give a **** what people believe? And if people are "weak minded" and "need a crutch" and that belief in a "fictional" God helps them function and live their life in a positive way or keeps them from using drugs or some other negative crutch - isn't that a good thing?

 

[zagoshe]

I am not Catholic (but was raised that way), and I don't shout from anywhere that anyone doesn't exist. I believe in a God that I find appropriate to believe in. You believe what you believe, and all power to you. But, I do have a problem with the idea that Catholicism is some sort of mythical higher ground to which we should all aspire, especially when that same ideal seems to condone rampant kid-touching and other reprehensible behavior in the name of "belief."

Really - the Catholic religion "condones" rampant kid touching?

And you really want to be taken seriously on this?

 

[Starman]

I am not Catholic (but was raised that way), and I don't shout from anywhere that anyone doesn't exist. I believe in a God that I find appropriate to believe in. You believe what you believe, and all power to you. But, I do have a problem with the idea that Catholicism is some sort of mythical higher ground to which we should all aspire, especially when that same ideal seems to condone rampant kid-touching and other reprehensible behavior in the name of "belief."

Really - the Catholic religion "condones" rampant kid touching?

And you really want to be taken seriously on this?

They sure as hell don't seem interested in doing anything about it.

Until they do, they have no moral credibility to comment on ANYTHING.

Sit down and shut up, old man.

 

[outofplace]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Hate to say it, schiez, but you are being quite intolerant of the views of a whole hell of a lot of people. Not saying they should be able to push their views on anybody else. They shouldn't. But we shouldn't be disrespecting their beliefs, either.

I'm not being intolerant of other people's views, or at least that's not my intent. I'm being intolerant of organized religions as a whole and think we'd be much better as a society if people would just do their own thing and stay out of other people's business/lives.

There are plenty of people who believe that the Catholic Church is right. That is their faith. If you can't respect that, why should they respect your beliefs?

 

[Brian]

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If people withheld fellow American citizens' constitutional rights because of the writings of Kris Kringle, I would get just as angry.


If people wanted to teach that Santa created the earth in six days instead of basic cosmology, I'd attack Santa.

If American politicians called on the promises of Father Time to guide our enviormental policy over the next 20 years, I'd have a bone to pick with Pere Noel.

This isn't a ****ing benign institution. People like me don't attack the Amish or the Mennonites. I grew up around Mennonites. They are of firm faith. They live their faith and don't try to take over the country, allowing each man to either come to God or to reject him.

When someone has the pull that the Pope does, when he has the power of life and death -- and the issue of condoms in Africa is a life and death situation -- he is going beyond having a simple and meek faith and playing the role of God himself.

And when the Catholic Church inevitably reverses its finding on condoms in the next 20 years, as it has all important social and scientific issues over the past millenia from slavery to heliocentrism to civil rights to inquisitions, what will be its answer to the millions who died of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa?

"Oops. Looks like God changed his mind."

 

[outofplace]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Why would you believe in anything (spiritually speaking) if you don't believe it is absolute?

If you are from a church which believes in John 3 as the way to heaven (that you must believe in Christ and accept him in your heart as your savior and become born again and repent from your sins in order to get to heaven), why would you then say "well that is only for me!"

If you truly believe you must repent from your sins to get to heaven and that Jesus is the savior and only way to heaven - why would you not believe that is absolute and applies to all?

I mean if you don't believe it is absolute then why bother at all?

That makes absolutely no sense at all, which is sort of what I've come to expect from atheists/agnostics because, well, they make no sense at all.

On one hand, they shout from the mountain tops that God doesn't exist, then on the other they spend every waking moment trying to prove he doesn't exist.

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If you truly believe he doesn't exist, why do you give a **** what people believe? And if people are "weak minded" and "need a crutch" and that belief in a "fictional" God helps them function and live their life in a positive way or keeps them from using drugs or some other negative crutch - isn't that a good thing?

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith. Some people accept the idea that we really don't know all of the answers that we would like to have.

The problem is we don't really know the truth. No human being does. We gather evidence and find faith as we can, but anybody who thinks they absolutely, positively know the capital-T Truth is kidding himself or herself. Every word in every religious text that exists was written by the hands of man. G-d may be infallible, but man is not.

 

[schiezainc]

The Catholic Church, like every organized religion, is an organization that preys on feeble minded people too afraid to acknowledge their life is a fluke and there is no afterlife and, as such, makes dumb rules and guidelines based on an antiquated fictional book.

To consider anything they say seriously is ridiculous, offensive and downright disgusting.

Eh, I'm not sure I'd go this far. Or even close to it. As far as moral authorities go, one could do worse than the Bible. Not that it's always right, but most of the tenets in there are those we and most human societies adopt. Or at least it serves as a decent starting point, along with the English common law, etc., etc.

Never said it wasn't a great tool in the shaping of beliefs and ideas. The Bible is a great book. No different than fairy tales and Stephen King novels.

But to treat it like law is ridiculous and the biggest problem I have with religions as a whole is the whole "Well, either you believe what I believe or you're a sinner and going to hell."

My personal religious belief, which I would never force on anyone, is that there either isn't a God or I'm not capable of grasping the existence of one. I won't knock people for their personal beliefs, provided they keep them to themselves, but in cases like this, it's clear that there are too many people guiding their lives by people who are out of touch with the times and/or our of their mind.

Why would you believe in anything (spiritually speaking) if you don't believe it is absolute?

If you are from a church which believes in John 3 as the way to heaven (that you must believe in Christ and accept him in your heart as your savior and become born again and repent from your sins in order to get to heaven), why would you then say "well that is only for me!"

If you truly believe you must repent from your sins to get to heaven and that Jesus is the savior and only way to heaven - why would you not believe that is absolute and applies to all?

I mean if you don't believe it is absolute then why bother at all?

That makes absolutely no sense at all, which is sort of what I've come to expect from atheists/agnostics because, well, they make no sense at all.

On one hand, they shout from the mountain tops that God doesn't exist, then on the other they spend every waking moment trying to prove he doesn't exist.

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If you truly believe he doesn't exist, why do you give a **** what people believe? And if people are "weak minded" and "need a crutch" and that belief in a "fictional" God helps them function and live their life in a positive way or keeps them from using drugs or some other negative crutch - isn't that a good thing?

I’m genuinely confused about what you’re saying here.

Are you saying that people who believe in religion are forced to force their beliefs on others? And as an agnostic, I don’t make sense because I’m trying to prove God doesn’t exist?

I’m not picking on you, just genuinely want to clear up the confusion.

I believe people should be able to believe what they want to believe, when they want to believe in, in any context that they want to believe it in AS LONG AS it does not interfere with the fundamental right other people should have to live their lives the way they want to.

Ergo, I’m not picking on Little Miss Catholic. If she wants to believe in the 10 Commandments and believe in the Resurrection and Palm Sunday and burning bushes, fine. Great. Awesome.

Believe what you want but, in this country, in this land that prides itself as being one where no religion rules the kingdom, don’t get up in arms because your book says it’s wrong for gays to get married and for women to choose to abort babies after they’ve been raped and for other couples to chose to have premarital sex.

You believe what you believe in. Let everyone else live their lives. In the end, you might be right, you might be wrong. I guess we’ll see when we all perish.

You ask why I care what people believe if I don’t believe. Well, that’s quite simple. Right now, we’ve got a dozen different laws or civil liberty issues being judged based on someone’s religious beliefs and there’s no place for it in a society that says church and state should be separate.

As I said, believe what you believe. Let me believe what I believe and we’ll co-exist swimmingly.

 

[I Should Coco]

The problem is we don't really know the truth. No human being does. We gather evidence and find faith as we can, but anybody who thinks they absolutely, positively know the capital-T Truth is kidding himself or herself. Every word in every religious text that exists was written by the hands of man. G-d may be infallible, but man is not.

I'm no theologian, but this sounds pretty good to me. Amen!

 

[service_gamer]

It looks like there was reason to believe the Catholic Church was finally moving into the 21st century. Alas, it was not to be.

You're being awfully ****ing generous with the 21st century designation. The church needs to crawl into the 20th century first.

Why exactly should the church "move into the 21st Century"?

Truth doesn't morph into whatever the culture decides is acceptable.

No?

Not really apples to apples. None of these have to do with the church, or any idea of a divine "truth" that, I assume, Hondo is alluding to.

That's not saying that the church hasn't changed over time, or that it hasn't made changes for the better over time, because obviously it has, just that I don't really feel like the pics make an applicable point.

Institutions should, from time to time, re-evaluate whether their "truth" still holds up.

Hence, the photos are applicable.

Which would be like saying that showing photos of grisly rape and murder scenes would be applicable in teaching your children not to steal candy from the store. You may technically be making a sound point, but you're using an extreme, manipulative example.

My two cents (not that anyone asked): In this day and age, we are all so desensitized to sex and believe opposing pre-marital sex is silly (sometimes including yours truly, a practicing Catholic), thus we can't fathom how taking a stance against something that can make sex safe holds any water. But I think you have to put yourself in the Church's position, which teaches that denying life is a sin. Thus contraception of any sort is a sin. This seems to rile people up, but to that I say 'Ignore the Church's teaching then.' It's not like the pope is ramming his agenda down your throat, he's counseling Catholics around the world. His opinion gets wide coverage due to his position and the sheer size of the Church, so people perceive that to mean that he's lecturing every single one of us. And that "lecture" goes against their thinking, so it becomes easy for them to call the Church heartless and out-of-touch. However, the Church is very much in line with what it teaches and believes, it's just easier and cooler to put Catholics down. What amazes me is that, again, my personal belief, it seems that fundamentalist Christians seem far more overbearing and unreasonable than Catholics do about such social issues, but there is something about that big pointy hat that really boils people's blood.

 

[zagoshe]

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith.

Never even hinted at this nonsense, not even close, learn to comprehend first and stop talking out of your ass and maybe this discussion has a chance to move forward.

 

[zagoshe]

I don't believe in Santa Claus and quite frankly, don't spend one second of any day - even Christmas - trying to discredit him, disprove he exists or angry because some people believe in him.

If people withheld fellow American citizens' constitutional rights because of the writings of Kris Kringle, I would get just as angry.


If people wanted to teach that Santa created the earth in six days instead of basic cosmology, I'd attack Santa.

If American politicians called on the promises of Father Time to guide our enviormental policy over the next 20 years, I'd have a bone to pick with Pere Noel.

This isn't a ****ing benign institution. People like me don't attack the Amish or the Mennonites. I grew up around Mennonites. They are of firm faith. They live their faith and don't try to take over the country, allowing each man to either come to God or to reject him.

When someone has the pull that the Pope does, when he has the power of life and death -- and the issue of condoms in Africa is a life and death situation -- he is going beyond having a simple and meek faith and playing the role of God himself.

And when the Catholic Church inevitably reverses its finding on condoms in the next 20 years, as it has all important social and scientific issues over the past millenia from slavery to heliocentrism to civil rights to inquisitions, what will be its answer to the millions who died of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa?

"Oops. Looks like God changed his mind."

Marriage is now a constitutional right? And what difference does it make to you what people want to believe as to how the earth was created? And now Christians are polluters as well because they don't run around in ugly sandals hugging trees?

Now YOU are trying to play God, but unlike the Pope, nobody gives a **** what you have to say.

 

[zagoshe]

I’m genuinely confused about what you’re saying here.

Are you saying that people who believe in religion are forced to force their beliefs on others? And as an agnostic, I don’t make sense because I’m trying to prove God doesn’t exist?

I’m not picking on you, just genuinely want to clear up the confusion.

I believe people should be able to believe what they want to believe, when they want to believe in, in any context that they want to believe it in AS LONG AS it does not interfere with the fundamental right other people should have to live their lives the way they want to.

Ergo, I’m not picking on Little Miss Catholic. If she wants to believe in the 10 Commandments and believe in the Resurrection and Palm Sunday and burning bushes, fine. Great. Awesome.

Believe what you want but, in this country, in this land that prides itself as being one where no religion rules the kingdom, don’t get up in arms because your book says it’s wrong for gays to get married and for women to choose to abort babies after they’ve been raped and for other couples to chose to have premarital sex.

You believe what you believe in. Let everyone else live their lives. In the end, you might be right, you might be wrong. I guess we’ll see when we all perish.

You ask why I care what people believe if I don’t believe. Well, that’s quite simple. Right now, we’ve got a dozen different laws or civil liberty issues being judged based on someone’s religious beliefs and there’s no place for it in a society that says church and state should be separate.

As I said, believe what you believe. Let me believe what I believe and we’ll co-exist swimmingly.

Yes, you are confused but at least you can admit it.

I never once hinted that people who believe in religion should force their beliefs on others.

What I said was that if you believe in something - whatever it is - and you don't believe it is an absolute truth and applies to everyone than you are wasting your time with it.

You believe there is no God and mock people who do as being "weak minded" and "foolish".

How is that any different than people who believe in, Christianity, for instance, who believe that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is going to hell?

And for the record - I believe abortion is immoral, but to ban it would be impractical, I'm on the record 1,000 times as saying that homosexuals should be able to marry whoever the **** they want and the government should get out of the marriage business all together and I'm not sure there is anyone trying to ban premarital sex anywhere, much less me.

There is a huge difference between not condoning immoral behavior and trying to legislate it.

But while we are at trying to not legislate morality, at least be as consistent as I am and let's also do away with every silly liberal scheme to redistribute wealth in this country, let's also do away with overbearing environmental regulations and let's also do away with forced compassion and sympathy in the form of foreign aid to third-world countries - because those are all forms of legislating morality as well.

 

[outofplace]

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith.

Never even hinted at this nonsense, not even close, learn to comprehend first and stop talking out of your ass and maybe this discussion has a chance to move forward.

Actually, what we really need is for you to try to have a discussion without the personal attacks for once. I highly doubt you can manage.

Your version is one of absolutes. Others have beliefs that have room to accept that we don't have all the answers. They allow for questioning.

So yes, you did hint at exactly what I said.

 

[zagoshe]

Just because somebody doesn't believe in your version of G-d doesn't mean they aren't going all the way with their faith.

Never even hinted at this nonsense, not even close, learn to comprehend first and stop talking out of your ass and maybe this discussion has a chance to move forward.

Actually, what we really need is for you to try to have a discussion without the personal attacks for once. I highly doubt you can manage.

Your version is one of absolutes. Others have beliefs that have room to accept that we don't have all the answers. They allow for questioning.

So yes, you did hint at exactly what I said.

No, I didn't.

I never once said or approached or even hinted that you need to believe the same things I do and if you don't, you aren't going all the way with your faith.

Not once, yet you, being the mush head you are, couldn't comprehend what I said and decided that you'd rather talk out of your ass than keep quiet until you actually could comprehend it fully.

I'll try it again.

What I said was this:

If you don't believe that whatever it is YOU believe is the absolute truth, then why are you bothering in the first place?

If you truly believe that Jesus is the way to heaven and the only way to heaven, why would you then say "well of course, there are other ways, too."

It makes no sense.