Joe Cool

[LongTimeListener]

Point of order: Young's teams did win a lot of games. But they very notably did NOT get to the Super Bowl the first three years -- we all remember the "monkey off the back" moment when he finally did get there. General feeling at the time was that a healthy Montana would have won another one or two.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

What's more impressive Elway's 2-3 record in the Super Bowl or Brady's 3-2 record in the Super Bowl?

Brady was a pretty significant favorite in four of the Super Bowls.

Elway was a huge underdog in three of the Super Bowls, a slight favorite in one and a huge favorite in the other.

I think the Bears reaching the Super Bowl with Rex ****ing Grossman at quarterback is pretty ******* impressive.

I'd like to see Grossman's numbers from that season compared to Dilfer's in 2000. I know Dilfer didn't start the entire season, but I'd bet Grossman had a better year than Dilfer did. People forget that for the first six games or so of that season, Grossman was tearing it up.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Point of order: Young's teams did win a lot of games. But they very notably did NOT get to the Super Bowl the first three years -- we all remember the "monkey off the back" moment when he finally did get there. General feeling at the time was that a healthy Montana would have won another one or two.

Yeah, I definitely felt that way at the time...

1991 was interesting. They were just awful at the beginning of the season. I think every loss that season was by a touchdown or less and then they rolled off five or six straight to end the season and still missed the playoffs. It would have been interesting to see how that team could have done in the playoffs. I doubt they would have beaten Washington, but it would have been a fun game to watch.

The next two seasons were when Dallas went back-to-back and I remember being more pissed when the Niners lost at home after the 1992 season. The following year, I think I got overconfident after they crushed the Giants in the Divisional game and then they got blasted down in Dallas...

 

[kingcreole]

Some of the football seamheads (laceheads?) will mock this position, but talking about "The Catch" and the drive vs. the Bengals illustrates a big difference between Montana and Brady. Montana had to, and did, drive his team into the end zone, while Brady merely got his team into field goal position.

No mocking from me. I've said that for years.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Some of the football seamheads (laceheads?) will mock this position, but talking about "The Catch" and the drive vs. the Bengals illustrates a big difference between Montana and Brady. Montana had to, and did, drive his team into the end zone, while Brady merely got his team into field goal position.

No mocking from me. I've said that for years.

Montana needed a TD.

Brady needed a FG.

They each got what was necessary for victory to be achieved.

Montana's tiebreaker is making the Kansas City Chiefs an AFC championship game participant. Montana made Marty Schottenheimer a playoff winner. Throwing to J.J. Birden, Willie Davis and Keith Cash, he won an AFC West title.

Without Montana (and, to an extent, a highly motivated Marcus Allen on his last legs), KC has one playoff victory in the last 40 years, one which shouldn't count since the Raiders were Marty's *****.

He is a true god of the sport.

 

[Uncle.Ruckus]

What's more impressive Elway's 2-3 record in the Super Bowl or Brady's 3-2 record in the Super Bowl?

Brady was a pretty significant favorite in four of the Super Bowls.

Elway was a huge underdog in three of the Super Bowls, a slight favorite in one and a huge favorite in the other.

I think the Bears reaching the Super Bowl with Rex ****ing Grossman at quarterback is pretty ******* impressive.

I'd like to see Grossman's numbers from that season compared to Dilfer's in 2000. I know Dilfer didn't start the entire season, but I'd bet Grossman had a better year than Dilfer did. People forget that for the first six games or so of that season, Grossman was tearing it up.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DilfTr00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GrosRe00.htm

 

[joe king]

What's more impressive Elway's 2-3 record in the Super Bowl or Brady's 3-2 record in the Super Bowl?

Brady was a pretty significant favorite in four of the Super Bowls.

Elway was a huge underdog in three of the Super Bowls, a slight favorite in one and a huge favorite in the other.

I think the Bears reaching the Super Bowl with Rex ****ing Grossman at quarterback is pretty ******* impressive.

Two words: David Woodley.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Hey, what happened to Stoney?

Is he busy crafting more posts in which every single word is incorrect?

 

[joe king]

What's more impressive Elway's 2-3 record in the Super Bowl or Brady's 3-2 record in the Super Bowl?

Brady was a pretty significant favorite in four of the Super Bowls.

Elway was a huge underdog in three of the Super Bowls, a slight favorite in one and a huge favorite in the other.

I think the Bears reaching the Super Bowl with Rex ****ing Grossman at quarterback is pretty ******* impressive.

I'd like to see Grossman's numbers from that season compared to Dilfer's in 2000. I know Dilfer didn't start the entire season, but I'd bet Grossman had a better year than Dilfer did. People forget that for the first six games or so of that season, Grossman was tearing it up.

I seem to remember reading that Grossman led the league in games with a 100-plus passer rating with something like seven -- and in games with a rating of 50 or less, with five or six. He was definitely in Good Rex/Bad Rex mode that season.

 

[Stoney]

Montana's tiebreaker is making the Kansas City Chiefs an AFC championship game participant. Montana made Marty Schottenheimer a playoff winner. Throwing to J.J. Birden, Willie Davis and Keith Cash, he won an AFC West title.

Aside from the playoff win, Montana did NOT significantly improve the Chiefs. In fact, their overall win percentage was actually slightly WORSE during Montana's two years than the years immediately preceding and following him. Here was KC's record the three years before Montana's arrival:

1990: 11-5
1991: 10-6
1992: 10-6

Years with Montana:

1993: 11-5
1994: 9-7

Three years after Montana:

1995: 13-3
1996: 9-7
1997: 13-3

So let's not pretend he was some sort of miracle worker in KC. He stepped into a very good situation with a team already winning and built to keep winning. He didn't win at any higher rate than Dave Kreig or Steve Bono did with that era's Chief teams, in fact they immediately improved four games from 9-7 to 13-3 right AFTER Joe left.

I guess you can brag about the playoff win over those Choke-prone 90s Oilers. But, otherwise, there was nothing particularly special about his time in KC.

 

[Stoney]

Hey, what happened to Stoney?

Is he busy crafting more posts in which every single word is incorrect?

I'm right here, and nothing in my post was incorrect.

 

[Norrin Radd]

Montana's tiebreaker is making the Kansas City Chiefs an AFC championship game participant. Montana made Marty Schottenheimer a playoff winner. Throwing to J.J. Birden, Willie Davis and Keith Cash, he won an AFC West title.

Aside from one playoff win, Montana did NOT significantly improve the Chiefs. In fact, their overall win percentage was actually slightly WORSE during Montana's two years than the years immediately preceding and following him. Here was KC's record the three years before Montana's arrival:

1990: 11-5
1991: 10-6
1992: 10-6

Years with Montana:

1993: 11-5
1994: 9-7

Three years after Montana:

1995: 13-3
1996: 9-7
1997: 13-3

So let's not pretend he was some sort of miracle worker in KC. He stepped into a very good situation with a team already winning and built to keep winning. He didn't win at any higher rate than Dave Kreig or Steve Bono did with that era's Chief teams, in fact they immediately improved four games from 9-7 to 13-3 right AFTER Joe left.

I guess you can brag about one playoff win over those Choke-prone 90s Oilers. But, otherwise, there was nothing particularly special about his time in KC.

Except he also beat Pittsburgh, and 1993 was the team's first AFC West title in 22 seasons.

It could easily be argued that he helped the Schottenheimer era in KC come of age.

Hey, what happened to Stoney?

Is he busy crafting more posts in which every single word is incorrect?

I'm right here, and nothing in my post was incorrect.

If you're referring to your "Joe Walsh coached Joe Montana" post, I respectfully must tell you that it read like someone who was deliberately attempting to be as off-base as possible.

 

[Stoney]

"Joe" was just an inadvertent typo, since corrected. And the rest of that post was a matter of subjective opinion, not "incorrect", and a subjective view that I stand by.

 

[qtlaw]

Montana getting KC into an AFC Championship Game may seem trivial, but I believe that was the first time they got there since the Len Dawson days and they haven't been there since. Although it appears they ultimately got blown out, if that HB doesn't drop that simple pass, it doesn't get picked and its a whole different ballgame.

"He drove the Chiefs to the Bills' 5-yard line and had a touchdown in his sights when he tossed a pass over the middle to a wide-open Kimble Anders. But the ball sailed out of Anders' hands into the arms of Buffalo defensive back Henry Jones." (just before halftime, down 20-6.)

 

[shockey]

Some of the football seamheads (laceheads?) will mock this position, but talking about "The Catch" and the drive vs. the Bengals illustrates a big difference between Montana and Brady. Montana had to, and did, drive his team into the end zone, while Brady merely got his team into field goal position.

No mocking from me. I've said that for years.

Montana needed a TD.

Brady needed a FG.

They each got what was necessary for victory to be achieved.

Montana's tiebreaker is making the Kansas City Chiefs an AFC championship game participant. Montana made Marty Schottenheimer a playoff winner. Throwing to J.J. Birden, Willie Davis and Keith Cash, he won an AFC West title.

Without Montana (and, to an extent, a highly motivated Marcus Allen on his last legs), KC has one playoff victory in the last 40 years, one which shouldn't count since the Raiders were Marty's *****.

He is a true god of the sport.

indeed, the two drives eli manning led to beat the pats in the supe's were moreimpressive than any of bray's most important supe moments. in both cases the giants needed a td, not just a fg, to win the game. brady's 'game-winning' super bowl drives were simply set-ups for vinatieri -- game-winning fg drives do not equal game-winning td drives. adam made his kicks so the legend of tom brady was born; if viatieri misses, pulls a norwide, brady = jim kelly.

 

[BTExpress]

indeed, the two drives eli manning led to beat the pats in the supe's were moreimpressive than any of bray's most important supe moments. in both cases the giants needed a td, not just a fg, to win the game. brady's 'game-winning' super bowl drives were simply set-ups for vinatieri -- game-winning fg drives do not equal game-winning td drives. adam made his kicks so the legend of tom brady was born; if viatieri misses, pulls a norwide, brady = jim kelly.

And lest we forget, in the last Pats-Colts AFC title game, Peyton needed to drive the Colts to a late TD. And did it.

Brady got the ball back with a minute to go to move into FG range (his specialty). And threw an interception.

 

[outofplace]

Damn. I hate when alphabet boy and I agree like this.

I really think some people go on about all the talent Montana had around him later in his time with the 49ers and forget how great he was long before Jerry Rice arrived.

Wow, it didn't even take two full pages for somebody to demonstrate my point. Thanks Stoney.

 

[Norrin Radd]

indeed, the two drives eli manning led to beat the pats in the supe's were moreimpressive than any of bray's most important supe moments. in both cases the giants needed a td, not just a fg, to win the game. brady's 'game-winning' super bowl drives were simply set-ups for vinatieri -- game-winning fg drives do not equal game-winning td drives. adam made his kicks so the legend of tom brady was born; if viatieri misses, pulls a norwide, brady = jim kelly.

And lest we forget, in the last Pats-Colts AFC title game, Peyton needed to drive the Colts to a late TD. And did it.

Brady got the ball back with a minute to go to move into FG range (his specialty). And threw an interception.

Wow, an unabashed Giants guy and the ultimate Peyton fanboy, talkin' NFL.

 

[kingcreole]

Montana's tiebreaker is making the Kansas City Chiefs an AFC championship game participant. Montana made Marty Schottenheimer a playoff winner. Throwing to J.J. Birden, Willie Davis and Keith Cash, he won an AFC West title.

Aside from the playoff win, Montana did NOT significantly improve the Chiefs. In fact, their overall win percentage was actually slightly WORSE during Montana's two years than the years immediately preceding and following him. Here was KC's record the three years before Montana's arrival:

1990: 11-5
1991: 10-6
1992: 10-6

Years with Montana:

1993: 11-5
1994: 9-7

Three years after Montana:

1995: 13-3
1996: 9-7
1997: 13-3

So let's not pretend he was some sort of miracle worker in KC. He stepped into a very good situation with a team already winning and built to keep winning. He didn't win at any higher rate than Dave Kreig or Steve Bono did with that era's Chief teams, in fact they immediately improved four games from 9-7 to 13-3 right AFTER Joe left.

I guess you can brag about one playoff win over those Choke-prone 90s Oilers. But, otherwise, there was nothing particularly special about his time in KC.

The 1994 game between Kansas City and San Francisco was one of the greatest regular-season sporting spectacles I ever witnessed. Arrowhead was so jacked up for that game. Montana's presence in Kansas City alone made it a special time.

Pre-Montana and post-merger, Kansas City had one division title and one playoff win. With Montana, Kansas City had one division title and two playoff wins. Since Montana, Kansas City has four division titles and zero playoff wins. Kansas City has indeed had many good regular seasons pre and post Montana, but those seasons are remembered more or less for royal choke jobs and postseason ass beatings.

And let's not forget that Montana played one meaningless half of football in two years before coming to Kansas City. And the sumbitch showed he still had the magic, not only against the Steelers and Oilers, but also the next season when Montana led the Chiefs to one of the greatest wins in Monday Night Football history at Denver.

 

[exmediahack]

Reading the "Best of Rivals" book about Montana/Young.

Montana was excellent but not perfect in the playoffs. In general, his teams won against inferior opponents (except for 1987 vs Vikings) and lost to better NFC teams in 1983 and 1986. Also back then, the NFC was a man's conference where the playoffs were a siege. Imagine an era with Gibbs' Redskins, the '85 Bears, the Rise of Parcells. Granted, the bottom of the NFC then was awful (Tampa, Detroit, Philly, St. Louis) but the top end was legendary.

I am more impressed with Montana's NFC games than the SB wins. The NFC title games were the real Super Bowl most years anyway.

Contrast that with the AFC in the 1980s. The Raiders won two but, otherwise, the Broncos won soft conferences over Marty Schottenheimer. Hell, the freaking Bengals went to the SB twice.