For whom should I work?

[djm825]

I'm looking for a new job. What I want most in this new job is an editor or an overall environment that will help me get better.

I'm three years out of grad school, and for those three years I've covered a major college football beat - one of the majorest. In those three years I've yet to have a single conversation with an editor or fellow writer about story structure. I've yet to have a story handed back to me with a note to go find another source or to re-report a certain element. I've yet to have a meaningful conversation about writing.

I'd gladly cover cat fashion shows if it was for someone who could help me cover cat fashion shows well and tell me when I was doing a horrible job. I want to work for someone who gives a ****.

Many of you, I gather, know the business well. So, I come here to ask where I can find these people. Are there particular editors I should be nagging or begging for a job? Who are the best editors at developing talent? Am I asking too much of a future employer? Does this kind of thing even exist anymore?

If money or prestige or a relevant beat or Twitter followers or whatever was left out of the equation, and it was just about writing for and with the people who were going to make you better, for whom would you want to work?

 

[da man]

I'm looking for a new job. What I want most in this new job is an editor or an overall environment that will help me get better.

I'm three years out of grad school, and for those three years I've covered a major college football beat - one of the majorest. In those three years I've yet to have a single conversation with an editor or fellow writer about story structure. I've yet to have a story handed back to me with a note to go find another source or to re-report a certain element. I've yet to have a meaningful conversation about writing.

I'd gladly cover cat fashion shows if it was for someone who could help me cover cat fashion shows well and tell me when I was doing a horrible job. I want to work for someone who gives a ****.

Many of you, I gather, know the business well. So, I come here to ask where I can find these people. Are there particular editors I should be nagging or begging for a job? Who are the best editors at developing talent? Am I asking too much of a future employer? Does this kind of thing even exist anymore?

If money or prestige or a relevant beat or Twitter followers or whatever was left out of the equation, and it was just about writing for and with the people who were going to make you better, for whom would you want to work?

All those grammar points you collected for your well constructed thread title were forfeited when you wrote "majorest."

 

[djm825]

You see! That's just the kind of pro tip I'm looking fo..., errr, for which I am looking.

Seriously though, I've got a list of about a dozen places that I'd like to target based on the type of talent they've produced in the past decade or so. I'd love to hear suggestions any of you may have to help me find out where I hit and where I missed as I get ready to begin my Jehovah's Witness routine. I'm guessing there are some others out there in a similar position that might find your opinions to be a useful resource.

 

[buckweaver]

I'm told there were once newsrooms full of people who gave a ****. I don't know when or where that was. In my experience, you're lucky to find one or two people who really are dedicated to help you get better. And even then ...

Look, even my best editors — and I'd still run through a brick wall for them, today — didn't have a meaningful conversation with me about story structure. I learned a lot from watching them and from watching co-workers I admired.

But the constructive conversations I've had about writing or reporting or editing were mostly "here you go, don't **** it up" or "you ****ed up; don't ever ****ing do it again." That's how daily journalism works.

 

[Versatile]

You can end a sentence on a preposition and sound like a **** when you obnoxiously avoid it.

 

[SoCalDude]

I've been eager to help our writers, but never given the authority. And our editors do absolutely no teaching or coaching.
We have one younger guy, a talented but green writer covering a major beat. I gave him a couple of writing tips recently and he complained to the SE that I chewed him out. I'd trade him in a second for the guy who started this thread, a person who doesn't think they know it all and is eager to learn.

 

[Glenn Stout]

I hear djm825's complaint from writers nearly every day, and it's true.

 

[imjustagirl]

Know what? It's not just editors. Follow writers you admire on Twitter. Start conversations, not about asking for advice, but just about things. You'll learn, and as you become friends, THEY'LL help you.

 

[SnarkShark]

I empathize with djm825. I've had this issue at a few stops in my career.

In my experience, there are many types of editors, but two are more common than most.

The first is the editor that doesn't care, will publish anything, barely makes any changes and gives you no feedback. These are the most common in the current journalism culture.

The second is the editor that cares so much that they essentially re-write the writers' copy. There is obviously no excuse for this, but I had a former editor that hijacked young reporters' voices and re-wrote stories in his own without consulting the reporters. Then, when those reporters would challenge him, he'd say he was more experienced, knew better and the story was better after his changes. If you want to write, be a reporter. If you want to be an editor, stick to editing and make your reporters look better.

What I've learned is to keep in touch with people who do give a **** from your past gigs or even a professor from J-school that you can bounce important stories off of. I have a couple of those people and when I'm looking to get feedback, I send my pieces to them.

 

[Alma]

Know what? It's not just editors. Follow writers you admire on Twitter. Start conversations, not about asking for advice, but just about things. You'll learn, and as you become friends, THEY'LL help you.

I'll push back a little bit here.

Writers aren't always great editors. And great writers sometimes have little understanding or patience for how to make below average stuff above average. Finally, writers can have a little tunnel vision. They don't see the six ways something could be done. They don't usually ask the weird questions editors will ask. And writers, very rarely, seek to simplify their stories, when that's what most good writing needs -- to be stripped of certain distinctives that doesn't add what the writer think it does.

 

[joe_schmoe]

If you really want the help, look for a paper with an older guy as editor who has been there for decades, a smaller to mid-size publication that more times than not is family owned. This may mean moving to in-the-middle-of-nowhere USA and taking a ridiculously low paying job. They are out there, but a lot of times, it's hit or miss. And yes, nowadays too many places are full of jaded editors/writers, etc who are dealing with furloughs, pay cuts, etc.....so it's hard to find a good shop.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

On the other hand, I've encountered some writers (and editors) who say they want to be coached, but what they really want is validation. Try not to waste people's time just so you can feel good about yourself. I've become more skeptical (cynical) when I'm asked. If I get the sense the person can't be bothered to read his own paper, I have no qualms about blowing off the request.

The really copout (but true) answer is that you won't get everything from any one person. The list of people who taught me is incredibly long, and I wouldn't have been ready for some of them a few years before I met them. And in hindsight I have a few regrets about people I shut out and could have learned from. The big lesson is that it's not necessary to like the teacher. It's relatively easy to find people who tell you what you want to hear, but people who will tell you the truth are harder to come by. I can't count how often my opinion about someone has changed decades later or how many people have reached out years later to tell me exactly what they learned from me.

And understand that no one is infallible. I have a nearly perfect track record in judging talent, but what keeps me humble is remembering one of the worst interns I've seen. He was godawful but has become hugely successful because he has an amazing work ethic. I got to tell him that a few years ago as his 50th birthday gift and I think it made both of us feel good when I said I've never seen anyone earn it more than he did.

 

[Bristol Whipped]

It must be nice to be able to choose your place of employment ...

 

[I Should Coco]

djm, the biggest problem today is newsroom positions have been cut back so severely that editing and/or providing feedback for younger reporters has gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Unfortunately, it's all about cranking out copy, posting/tweeting it ASAP, and eventually slapping together pages as quickly as possible.

As stupid as this sounds, if you really want an editor to give your story a good read and provide you with suggestions for improving your writing, ask he or she to do so after deadline. That's about the only time people can think in a newsroom anymore.

 

[Mark2010]

I empathize with djm825. I've had this issue at a few stops in my career.

In my experience, there are many types of editors, but two are more common than most.

The first is the editor that doesn't care, will publish anything, barely makes any changes and gives you no feedback. These are the most common in the current journalism culture.

The second is the editor that cares so much that they essentially re-write the writers' copy. There is obviously no excuse for this, but I had a former editor that hijacked young reporters' voices and re-wrote stories in his own without consulting the reporters. Then, when those reporters would challenge him, he'd say he was more experienced, knew better and the story was better after his changes. If you want to write, be a reporter. If you want to be an editor, stick to editing and make your reporters look better.

What I've learned is to keep in touch with people who do give a **** from your past gigs or even a professor from J-school that you can bounce important stories off of. I have a couple of those people and when I'm looking to get feedback, I send my pieces to them.

That's a great point. I've seen it, too.

Maybe part of it can be traced to staff reductions. There just aren't enough bodies to do everything that needs to get done. So it leaves editors with less time to sit down with reporters and go over stories, provide feedback, etc. I used to try to do that with the younger writers. Now, instead of doing 3-4 pages per night, maybe you're doing 6-8, plus phone calls, updating a web site, social media nonsense, corporate paperwork, etc. So the actual editing and feedback part falls through the cracks and things suffer.

 

[murphyc]

djm, just to clarify, are you looking for a new job because you're currently without one, or because you want to change from a current job? If the latter, and your only reason for wanting a change is to get better feedback or coaching about your writing, I would suggest reconsidering. As others have pointed out, places offering that kind of thing these days are few and far between
There were times, particularly early in my career, when I was frustrated about the lack of feedback from my bosses. One thing I would suggest is asking co-workers and/or editors something like, "Does that lead in my story work? I liked it because of this reason, but I didn't know if that was too cliche or not." In other words, sometimes you need to initiate the feedback process instead of waiting for someone to start it for you. I don't know; maybe you've already tried that and it led to nothing.

 

[imjustagirl]

Know what? It's not just editors. Follow writers you admire on Twitter. Start conversations, not about asking for advice, but just about things. You'll learn, and as you become friends, THEY'LL help you.

I'll push back a little bit here.

Writers aren't always great editors. And great writers sometimes have little understanding or patience for how to make below average stuff above average. Finally, writers can have a little tunnel vision. They don't see the six ways something could be done. They don't usually ask the weird questions editors will ask. And writers, very rarely, seek to simplify their stories, when that's what most good writing needs -- to be stripped of certain distinctives that doesn't add what the writer think it does.

In my defense, I said it's not JUST editors. I think there are several ways to get better, and talking to those who are accomplished in the field doesn't hurt.

 

[boxingnut4324]

I know that my editors aren't going to have time to give me much feedback, so what I do is follow the writers I admire on Twitter and read their content and recommendations. Reading people like Dan Wetzel, Wright Thompson, and Dana O'Neil have made me better.

 

[Versatile]

Reading people like Dan Wetzel, Wright Thompson, and Dana O'Neil have made me better.

I'm guessing the editors might be able to help.