Daniel Tosh and Rape Jokes

[dooley_womack1]

I was about to say, that seemed way too reasonable to be him.[/zing]

 

[jr/shotglass]

Yeah, don't go being reasonable in my name, dammit!

 

[Precious Roy]

I don't know if this has been brought up (I skim way too much), but much of Tosh's humor is based on the following: he begins a joke in the widest of ways to get everyone laughing, then as he continues the joke he begins pushing and pushing until there are just 2-3 people really laughing at the joke because everyone else is offended or just doesn't get it. He has said that last part is what he aims to do with every joke he tells so he knows just how far is too far.
I think the guy is hilarious, but then again I think offensive things are funny. We live in a world too messed up not to laugh at the utter horribleness of it all. If I didn't laugh, the depression would be way too much.
I agree that he crossed the line with the "gang rape" bit, but when I read the story I knew that was going to be his reaction.
She should have walked out, plain and simple, and demanded her money back.

 

[Alma]

Alma,

You're missing the point here. The point isn't that this person was offended. You take your chances that that's going to happen by purchasing tickets to a show featuring a comedian who's entire routine consists of trying to push the envelope.

The point here is that this specific person was acting self-righteous by disrupting a comedy show for a room full of other people in order to heckle Tosh and express her opinion that rape jokes are never funny.

And your analogies are WAY off.

As a member of a paid audience at a comedy show, you are there to watch and listen to the man/woman on stage, laugh and have a good time. You are not, nor should you be, part of the program UNLESS the comedian him/herself brings you into the routine by his/her choice.

It’d be one thing is Tosh said “Hey, see that girl right there? Let’s imagine five guys raping her!” completely unprovoked. While I would still argue that that’s his right as the night’s entertainer (and thus the audience, as a whole, can boo him if they don’t like where he’s going with that), that’s a far different scenario than someone verbally interrupting a man’s routine to interject that they don’t approve of his latest joke.

Her disruption caused him to go off script and he retaliated with a vulgar, off-color joke meant to embarrass her for interrupting him. It’s what comedians do.

This is far different than an NFL game where the audience members can boo, yell and scream all they want and it doesn’t disrupt the actual action on the field. To make your analogy work, we have to extend it a bit. It’s like you’re arguing that a member of the audience has the right, because they bought a ticket, to go on the field and sack a quarterback because they think he’s playing like crap and they are not entertained.

Booing doesn’t disrupt a football game. It does disrupt a comedy routine in a small club where even the sound of something as simple as a cell phone going off can throw everything off track.

As for your general point about heckling, I think it has no place in comedy. That’s just my personal opinion. I can MAYBE see it if you’re talking about an Open Mic night where audience members, as a whole, are not being entertained because the guy/girl on stage is awful and booing said person is more likely to get them away from the mic so someone else who might be better can get on there but that’s not what this was.

This was a Daniel Tosh stand up show. People (I presume) who paid for this show paid for it to see Tosh and see his brand of humor. Like it or not, that’s what you sign up for when you go see this guy. If he says something that offends you to the point where you no longer want to be a part of that audience, get up and leave. No one is forcing you to stay there.

And I never said you have to have a positive reaction if you pay for something. You have the right to be negative all you want. You don’t, however, have a right to ruin someone else’s enjoyment of said event simply to get your point across.

And I never said don’t judge Tosh. I personally don’t think his retort to the audience member was funny in the slightest. I think it was crude for the sake of being crude and not nearly as intelligent as a true master of the craft of comedy could make it. But I’m here, I’m not at a Tosh show. And I’m not going to stand up and disrupt a Tosh show because he makes a remark I don’t approve of.

Wrapping this up, let me comment on your final four points.

First: The moment that this audience member, or any audience member who under your assumption was never exposed to Tosh, began to be overly offended, enough to want to disrupt the show, she should have gotten up and left. Instead, she chose to make the show about her and tried to, in my opinion, impose her morals on the man on stage. She made herself part of the comedy routine and, thus, deserved to get demolished verbally by the man paid to insult people.

Second, I’m not saying that at all. You have to know the person on the stage. A couple of years ago when Michael Richards flipped out and started throwing the N word around, people had a right to be offended/pissed off because that’s not what was advertised. When you bought a ticket to his show, you expected X and got Y. When this lady bought a ticket to see Tosh, she expected X, got X and then complained about X. Big difference.

Third, as I said above, I don’t think it was a particularly funny or witty response but, in my opinion, he was well within his rights to say ANYTHING he wanted to because A. He was the entertainer that night, B. We live in a free society where you can say what you want and C.) The audience, if they didn’t like it, could have left. She engaged in the art for the way thousands of hecklers have done, Tosh realized she was offended by rape jokes and took it a step further than he needed to to make his point that he was going to say and do what he wanted to. Not funny but well within his rights as a stand-up comedian who makes his money peddling a certain product, a product this audience member wants to complain about after the fact.

I think your fourth contention is very spot on and, had that happened, I’d be willing to bet Tosh’s response would never have flown with the crowd. But that’s making rape an actual topic of real discussion instead of another taboo subject Tosh wanted to ripe on. It’s no different than the disturbing trend of 9/11 jokes recently. If Tosh made a 9/11 joke and someone said that “9/11 jokes are never funny”, that’s inherently different than a 9/11 survivor of family member saying “I am personally affected by that topic and, thus, I feel those jokes are in poor taste”. In this context, this audience member had one point to convey and felt like she could speak for everyone by using the blanket statement that “rape jokes are never funny”. I disagree with that premise and disagree that it was an important enough statement to bring a comedian’s show to a halt. This woman had an ax to grind, she tried to bring attention to herself and Tosh responded the way all comedians do. It’s just that instead of insulting this woman’s fashion sense or appearance, he made an offensive joke to rile her up more because that’s what comedians do.

Can’t stand the heat, don’t pay to see a hack comedian.

I'll try to respond:

1. I'm not missing the point. I'm aware she disrupted the show. Although, in the realm of comedy, heckling isn't nearly as taboo as you make it - and we'll get back to taboo in a minute - the comedian doesn't have the intrinsic right to not be heckled. Who are we kidding? In the course of the argument, you've shifted the burden away from the comic to entertain and on the audience to understand the entertainment. <i>You paid $30 for this show, your job is to like it or shut up about it.</i> I think it's a tack you're taking to defend artists and their work, which I get, because I appreciate artists, too. But not to the extent that, if they come up with ****, someone calls them on the ****.

2. Your rules for being an audience member at a comedy show are fine and good, but there isn't any law, nobody's bound to them, and you know that, so let's move on. At best it's a social contract, and boy, given the shows I've seen in my life, not everybody's followed that credo. Comedians are heckled off the stage often. Just because a comedian wants a pliant audience doesn't mean he's going to get it. He gets to tell the jokes, not control the reaction.

3. Do we know she ruined anyone else's enjoyment of the night? Was a survey taken? Is this conjecture? If so, I'll wager the crowd was intrigued by the interplay. And, beyond that, not to be on the nose, but: Who says you have no right to ruin someone else's night? I go to a three-star restaurant, and the person behind me complains about what I think is great food and, what, they're not allowed to complain because it infringes on my sense of enjoyment? You're using words like "ruin" and applying it to a single statement of opposition. The phrase <i>"rape jokes are never funny"</i> ruins the night? Maybe it takes the shine off of an audience wanting to indulge in rank misogyny. Again: I don't think such a thing is so sacred to protect.

4. Fans affect football games. You don't think the quarterback's sees the guy in the QB's own jersey giving him the double bird heading back to the sidelines after a pick? As far as disrupting games, I mean, goodness. Soccer? A camera clicking in golf? Some yahoo screaming "AG-A-SSI!" at the top of the arena? Little League games?

5. How you or I define what the woman "should" have has no real bearing on the righteousness of the act. It presumes your idea of "should" is right. Like I said, it's perhaps a close call, but when someone's telling rape jokes, and the basic response from one member of the audience is: "I don't think that's funny", I'm not automatically disqualifying that from what I'd consider the range of acceptable responses. I'd say it's OK, in fact.

6. Of course Tosh was well within his rights. So was she. You're judging her harshly for saying rape jokes aren't funny, and defending him strongly for insisting they are and upping the ante to joke that she should be raped, too. All because "he was the entertainer for that night?" When I wrote "The tyranny of the artist," that's what I meant: That the artist's statement is so protected, in this case, that the only appropriate rebuttal to it is silence. And I can't agree. I don't see why, on a matter of rape, it'd be necessary to agree.

I'm not saying you can't laugh at the joke, although, IMO, it's insensitive. I am saying that it's a little odd to put his rights as a comedian above her rights as an audience member on matter like <i>rape.</i>

 

[Alma]

I don't know if this has been brought up (I skim way too much), but much of Tosh's humor is based on the following: he begins a joke in the widest of ways to get everyone laughing, then as he continues the joke he begins pushing and pushing until there are just 2-3 people really laughing at the joke because everyone else is offended or just doesn't get it. He has said that last part is what he aims to do with every joke he tells so he knows just how far is too far.

Well, that, and to make his audience squirm because he has the facade of control with the mic. This woman broke that facade and he didn't like it much.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I don't know if this has been brought up (I skim way too much), but much of Tosh's humor is based on the following: he begins a joke in the widest of ways to get everyone laughing, then as he continues the joke he begins pushing and pushing until there are just 2-3 people really laughing at the joke because everyone else is offended or just doesn't get it. He has said that last part is what he aims to do with every joke he tells so he knows just how far is too far.
I think the guy is hilarious, but then again I think offensive things are funny. We live in a world too messed up not to laugh at the utter horribleness of it all. If I didn't laugh, the depression would be way too much.
I agree that he crossed the line with the "gang rape" bit, but when I read the story I knew that was going to be his reaction.
She should have walked out, plain and simple, and demanded her money back.

According to the club owner she didn't walk out and when she complained he gave her free tickets to an upcoming show.

 

[Alma]

You say we should sub in "political fascist rally" for "Tosh show". OK. Let's do that.

Let's say you paid to go to a rally where you knew the main speaker was going to spew hate and evil and a bunch of other bad things. The rest of the audience did the same. What gives you the right to ***** about something you don't agree with after you bought your ticket knowing full well what was going to go down?

And I'm not saying you have to like every joke or point made. I'm only saying that in a scenario like this, you get what you pay for and, if you don't like it, get up, walk out and leave.

It's not fair to the other audience members who weren't offended and/or found the joke funny to derail the routine simply because you were offended.

Yeah, so time-travel back to 1932 and just walk on by that Hitler rally without saying anything.

And verse, calling a garden-variety heckler who was then basically, if there were enough hyped-up drunks in the audience, offered up for gang range, a "moralist *****" is excreble. She has every right to be there; maybe she just wanted to judge the "humor" for herself. Maybe she would have been better off picketing outside the show to get her point across.

Also excreble: the viewpoint that something has to be un-PC to be funny. But that's hardly the point in this case. That anyone can find endangering a woman a reason to chortle and to lay into the victim is really disheartening.

You're right; my reaction was a bit harsh. But we live in a world of snuff porn and self-mutilation, and I just don't understand how anyone isn't desensitized yet or how anyone thinks it's right to tell others what to enjoy. If you laughed, it was funny. If you cried, it was sad. If you were aroused, then it was arousing. That's all there is: natural human reaction. That which we can't control.

In a word: No. I don't write that with any malice, either. I simply don't and can't ascribe to the worldview in the last two sentences.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I don't know if this has been brought up (I skim way too much), but much of Tosh's humor is based on the following: he begins a joke in the widest of ways to get everyone laughing, then as he continues the joke he begins pushing and pushing until there are just 2-3 people really laughing at the joke because everyone else is offended or just doesn't get it. He has said that last part is what he aims to do with every joke he tells so he knows just how far is too far.

Well, that, and to make his audience squirm because he has the facade of control with the mic. This woman broke that facade and he didn't like it much.

She heckled him and he shouted her down.

 

[Versatile]

Alma, you clarified several of your points saliently, as I expected you would, but you continue to fail to address the notion that Daniel Tosh was achieving his stated purpose and the audience was receiving exactly what it expected. There's a set of expectations that need to be applied. If you take your child to an R-rated movie and are upset by language, violence or nudity, that's on you. If you attend a comedy show starring a comedian whose style clashes with and even offends your sensibilities, that's on you.

 

[dooley_womack1]

I don't know if this has been brought up (I skim way too much), but much of Tosh's humor is based on the following: he begins a joke in the widest of ways to get everyone laughing, then as he continues the joke he begins pushing and pushing until there are just 2-3 people really laughing at the joke because everyone else is offended or just doesn't get it. He has said that last part is what he aims to do with every joke he tells so he knows just how far is too far.

Well, that, and to make his audience squirm because he has the facade of control with the mic. This woman broke that facade and he didn't like it much.

She heckled him and he shouted her down.

The second clause is a gross simplication.

 

[Alma]

Alma, you clarified several of your points saliently, as I expected you would, but you continue to fail to address the notion that Daniel Tosh was achieving his stated purpose and the audience was receiving exactly what it expected. There's a set of expectations that need to be applied. If you take your child to an R-rated movie and are upset by language, violence or nudity, that's on you. If you attend a comedy show starring a comedian whose style clashes with and even offends your sensibilities, that's on you.

I get all of what you're saying. I'm suggesting the idea of heckling a comedian is theoretically solid and valuable in this circumstance. I measure her opposition as more valuable than whatever humor could be culled from a rape joke. If Tosh and the audience were derailed for a second from their rape joke reverie, good. I am making a moral judgment while admittedly being flawed myself.

 

[jr/shotglass]

3. Do we know she ruined anyone else's enjoyment of the night? Was a survey taken? Is this conjecture? If so, I'll wager the crowd was intrigued by the interplay.

In situations like this, there's usually something I'm missing, or all of us. This might have been the thing in this case.

The crowd probably got more than their money's worth from that exchange.

 

[schiezainc]

Alma, we're going to have to agree to disagree on a lot of what you said because, clearly, neither of us is going to budge.

If she wants to heckle Tosh, which as you say is part of comedy, that's fine. But she can't then complain that he pushed the envelope even further in his rebuttal. Once she made herself a part of the show, she opened herself up to whatever he was going to dish at her. It's all fair game.

And that's the problem I have here. We're all arguing as if Tosh did something wrong when, in actuality, he did EXACTLY what he was expected to do.

Do I care that he made rape jokes? No. It doesn't offend me. I am offended, however, by his rebuttal to her as I feel like that took the idea of rape from a mythical topic he was just rifting on to one he was legitimately downgrading the seriousness of.

But I'm not an audience member at one of his shows and I'm not interrupting said show.

I don't really find him funny. I don't quite get it. But I will steadfastly argue his right to continue his schtick because there are people who find him funny and they're willing to pay to see him even if I'd rather watch anything else.

And at the end of the day, who really cares? What does what some hack comedian says in a club matter in the grand scheme of things? All this is doing is giving Tosh an insane amount of publicity that he wouldn't have otherwise got and, if you ask me, it's opening the door for him to go even more extreme the next time someone interrupts him.

 

[Care Bear]

I agree this woman had every right to say what she did, just as Tosh had every right to say what he did. However, if she is trying to make a point (and not call attention to herself) is there possibly a worse crowd for her to voice her opinion in front of than a rowdy pro-Tosh audience? She (and he) gave them a show alright, but I suspect her moral objection fell on drunk ears.

I just think she had many, many other avenues she could have explored for voicing her opinion. All of which would probably allow for a more open-minded audience than the one she ultimately chose. And I'm just talking about this particular situation, by the way. I understand the historical impact unpopular speeches have had in the past. But we're talking about a freaking Daniel Tosh show.

 

[dooley_womack1]

I agree this woman had every right to say what she did, just as Tosh had every right to say what he did. However, if she is trying to make a point (and not call attention to herself) is there possibly a worse crowd for her to voice her opinion in front of than a rowdy pro-Tosh audience? She (and he) gave them a show alright, but I suspect her moral objection fell on drunk ears.

I just think she had many, many other avenues she could have explored for voicing her opinion. All of which would probably allow for a more open-minded audience than the one she ultimately chose. And I'm just talking about this particular situation, by the way. I understand the historical impact unpopular speeches have had in the past. But we're talking about a freaking Daniel Tosh show.

 

[Care Bear]

Shottie: I was mainly dealing with schiez's point that if you don't like what a politician is saying at a rally, don't say anything and vacate the premises. America is built in part on speaking up. I just think egging on the possibility of gang rape takes all the scot-free-ness off Tosh. Imagine if there were enough drunken fanbois who decided to follow their leader.

 

[dooley_womack1]

OK, you win.

 

[jr/shotglass]

You people are taking my good name in vain.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I agree this woman had every right to say what she did, just as Tosh had every right to say what he did. However, if she is trying to make a point (and not call attention to herself) is there possibly a worse crowd for her to voice her opinion in front of than a rowdy pro-Tosh audience? She (and he) gave them a show alright, but I suspect her moral objection fell on drunk ears.

I just think she had many, many other avenues she could have explored for voicing her opinion. All of which would probably allow for a more open-minded audience than the one she ultimately chose. And I'm just talking about this particular situation, by the way. I understand the historical impact unpopular speeches have had in the past. But we're talking about a freaking Daniel Tosh show.

Stop making so much sense.

I'm a big comedy fan. I used to go to the Comedy Cellar every night I was in NYC and I used to have to travel there 5-6 times a year.

I was there once and a woman heckled Louis C.K. because he was working stuff out, and had his notebook out. This woman had no concept that this is how comedians get better before they go out on tour and for some reason expected him to come out and do 45 minutes.

He called her the c-word about five times and the crowd was cheering.

I remember right after C.K.'s set, Colin Quinn came up and the first line he said was, "Lady, you want filet mignon, but you're getting to watch us kill the cow."

If you don't like what the comic is saying, you get up and walk out. If you decide to heckle, while that is your right, you immediately become fair game.

 

[Alma]

I agree this woman had every right to say what she did, just as Tosh had every right to say what he did. However, if she is trying to make a point (and not call attention to herself) is there possibly a worse crowd for her to voice her opinion in front of than a rowdy pro-Tosh audience? She (and he) gave them a show alright, but I suspect her moral objection fell on drunk ears.

I just think she had many, many other avenues she could have explored for voicing her opinion. All of which would probably allow for a more open-minded audience than the one she ultimately chose. And I'm just talking about this particular situation, by the way. I understand the historical impact unpopular speeches have had in the past. But we're talking about a freaking Daniel Tosh show.

Stop making so much sense.

I'm a big comedy fan. I used to go to the Comedy Cellar every night I was in NYC and I used to have to travel there 5-6 times a year.

I was there once and a woman heckled Louis C.K. because he was working stuff out, and had his notebook out. This woman had no concept that this is how comedians get better before they go out on tour and for some reason expected him to come out and do 45 minutes.

He called her the c-word about five times and the crowd was cheering.

I remember right after C.K.'s set, Colin Quinn came up and the first line he said was, "Lady, you want filet mignon, but you're getting to watch us kill the cow."

If you don't like what the comic is saying, you get up and walk out. If you decide to heckle, while that is your right, you immediately become fair game.

Calling someone the c-word is not a approrpriate response to <i>anything</i>, man.