Colorado regents vote to close J-school

[RickStain]

Journalism is a field of work, it is not a field of thought or study. The comparisons to philosophy or history or English just don't fly.

This is incorrect.

Granted, study of journalism may not go as deep as study of philosophy or such.

But it is very much a field of study.

You study techniques to learn how to do the work. You don't study journalism for the sake of a deeper understanding of journalism. You study it to go out and do journalism. As a major, it's closer to vocational tech than it is to philosophy. (Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating that last point a bit).

You don't study journalism for the sake of a deeper understanding of journalism? Did you even go to college?

A deeper understanding of journalism isn't the end. It's another step in the process of doing better journalism. Nobody goes to college to understand journalism better *just for the sake of understanding journalism better.*

 

[JackS]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

 

[RickStain]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

If they are recent students, it's a little early in the game to decide if they've won or not.

 

[JackS]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

If they are recent students, it's a little early in the game to decide if they've won or not.

Exactly the kind of attitude I despise right there. I guarantee you I will continue encouraging them.

 

[BYH]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

They are also very young. I have no doubt about their talents, but let's see where they are and what they're doing once they get on the wrong side of 30, never mind once they approach 40.

 

[RickStain]

Rick, journalism is a career, once you start it. Until then, it's a field of study. It's one of the most highly researched fields of study in academia. A deeper understanding isn't the end, but it's certainly a part of the start. And yes, lots of people go to college to understand journalism better; they're called graduate students. They don't study the field for ****s and giggles. They do it to understand it better and perhaps even spread some of that knowledge to people who, um, go to college.

All of which, in the end, is dedicated to the production of actual, working journalists.

I'm not saying there's no academic side to it at all. I'm saying that if you start breaking it down by ratio, the "career prep" side takes up much more time, attention and resources than the academic side.

 

[RickStain]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

If they are recent students, it's a little early in the game to decide if they've won or not.

Exactly the kind of attitude I despise right there. I guarantee you I will continue encouraging them.

Okay.

 

[Mark2010]

Journalism, as a field, isn't going away. It's simply changing, like a lot of other fields. There will always be a need for people who can research, interview, report and write with clarity, no matter what the platform.

 

[Piotr Rasputin]

Journalism, as a field, isn't going away. It's simply changing, like a lot of other fields. There will always be a need for people who can research, interview, report and write with clarity, no matter what the platform.

What Journalism School do you do PR for? That's straight out of the standard journo-speak of the last couple of years.

The problem is, this doesn't account for the fact there are some very good people in very good journalism jobs who majored in something else.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

And the people who win Powerball probably had people telling them they were wasting their money buying tickets every week.

Fifteen years ago when I graduated, there was the reasonable expectation that if you worked hard and had a bit of talent that you could make a career in journalism. That's not the case anymore for the majority of journalists.

Look at how many of the Fanhouse writers who have been hired... It's not many and those were people who were the top writers at their papers when they bolted.

 

[Mark2010]

What you're saying is supply exceeds demand at the moment. Don't necessarily disagree but there are other fields where that is also the case.

 

[JackS]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

And the people who win Powerball probably had people telling them they were wasting their money buying tickets every week.

Fifteen years ago when I graduated, there was the reasonable expectation that if you worked hard and had a bit of talent that you could make a career in journalism. That's not the case anymore for the majority of journalists.

Look at how many of the Fanhouse writers who have been hired... It's not many and those were people who were the top writers at their papers when they bolted.

I think it's still a reasonable expectation. I'm 25 years in and still going (the teaching is just on the side). And from what I gather from your posts, it's your choice that you're not still in the biz.

It's not an easy business; I know that. But if you're talented, persistent and FLEXIBLE, you can survive and even thrive.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

And the people who win Powerball probably had people telling them they were wasting their money buying tickets every week.

Fifteen years ago when I graduated, there was the reasonable expectation that if you worked hard and had a bit of talent that you could make a career in journalism. That's not the case anymore for the majority of journalists.

Look at how many of the Fanhouse writers who have been hired... It's not many and those were people who were the top writers at their papers when they bolted.

I think it's still a reasonable expectation. I'm 25 years in and still going (the teaching is just on the side). And from what I gather from your posts, it's your choice that you're not still in the biz.

It's not an easy business; I know that. But if you're talented, persistent and FLEXIBLE, you can survive and even thrive.

I probably can't argue any of that.

 

[LongTimeListener]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

And the people who win Powerball probably had people telling them they were wasting their money buying tickets every week.

Fifteen years ago when I graduated, there was the reasonable expectation that if you worked hard and had a bit of talent that you could make a career in journalism. That's not the case anymore for the majority of journalists.

Look at how many of the Fanhouse writers who have been hired... It's not many and those were people who were the top writers at their papers when they bolted.

I think it's still a reasonable expectation. I'm 25 years in and still going (the teaching is just on the side). And from what I gather from your posts, it's your choice that you're not still in the biz.

It's not an easy business; I know that. But if you're talented, persistent and FLEXIBLE, you can survive and even thrive.

I probably can't argue any of that.

I could.

1) If you are all of those things, there is still a low percentage chance that you will thrive in this business; survival is up to each person to determine the threshold, but we are at a point where damn fine professionals are clawing for $40,000-a-year jobs.

2) I could write a list of people I know who are talented, persistent and flexible and have been cast out of this business, but I don't think there's enough space on the Internet for that. The whole "if you want it bad enough you'll get it" is a tired old trope that is trotted out by J-schools who need to fill their halls and by industry captains who don't want to pay people living wages so instead make people feel guilty for wanting living wages. The numbers say what Mizzou was saying: This business used to be a nice place to find a middle-class living. It no longer is and probably never will be that.

 

[Stitch]

When people in the industry think $32,500 is a great salary, any hope for a middle-class lifestyle in the business is doomed.

 

[BitterYoungMatador2]

When people in the industry think $32,500 is a great salary, any hope for a middle-class lifestyle in the business is doomed.

Haven't you heard? New legislation in Congress prohibits anyone giving a **** about their salary and not just being, "thankful you have a job." Wonder what line of BS they'll be cooking up and serving five years from now when unemployment's dipped and wages still haven't improved? Ohh, I know, "Well, it could be worse. Remember five years ago when people were just lucky to have jobs?"

 

[JackS]

I agree with Starman. If you major in journalism at this point, you're insane. If you want to major in something else and write for the paper on the side, fine...

It's no longer a viable profession, sad as it is to say...

Are my recent students now working at SI, NBC and the Wall Street Journal insane?

No, they are the exceptions.

Yeah, well that's part of my original point. Let's not make blanket statements.

I'm glad the "exceptions" didn't have people discouraging them.

And the people who win Powerball probably had people telling them they were wasting their money buying tickets every week.

Fifteen years ago when I graduated, there was the reasonable expectation that if you worked hard and had a bit of talent that you could make a career in journalism. That's not the case anymore for the majority of journalists.

Look at how many of the Fanhouse writers who have been hired... It's not many and those were people who were the top writers at their papers when they bolted.

I think it's still a reasonable expectation. I'm 25 years in and still going (the teaching is just on the side). And from what I gather from your posts, it's your choice that you're not still in the biz.

It's not an easy business; I know that. But if you're talented, persistent and FLEXIBLE, you can survive and even thrive.

I probably can't argue any of that.

I could.

1) If you are all of those things, there is still a low percentage chance that you will thrive in this business; survival is up to each person to determine the threshold, but we are at a point where damn fine professionals are clawing for $40,000-a-year jobs.

2) I could write a list of people I know who are talented, persistent and flexible and have been cast out of this business, but I don't think there's enough space on the Internet for that. The whole "if you want it bad enough you'll get it" is a tired old trope that is trotted out by J-schools who need to fill their halls and by industry captains who don't want to pay people living wages so instead make people feel guilty for wanting living wages. The numbers say what Mizzou was saying: This business used to be a nice place to find a middle-class living. It no longer is and probably never will be that.

Again, I want to make it clear that I don't advocate every Joe Blow with an interest enter this field. It's too tough for that. What pisses me off are the blanket statements that everyone--no matter how talented, persistent and flexible--should be discouraged from entering. That's the real trope.

And I would also question, in general, how persistent and flexible some people who you suggest have been "permanently" cast out of the field are. I'm not going to get into individuals, and I don't want you to do that either, but I can tell you I know talented people who I personally don't think are persistent or flexible enough to make a long career in this business.

 

[LongTimeListener]

You are showing why people laugh when journalists try to do math. Just look at the numbers. You know, Brian Williams made a good living too, but that doesn't mean broadcast journalism was a great field to enter in the 1990s. This is the same thing.

And yes, I think everyone, particularly in a J-school, should be discouraged from entering. That is, they should be told that what awaits them is an extremely flooded pool of candidates and a likelihood that they will never make enough money to support themselves and a family. If they hear that and still want to go for it, fine, but I seriously question whether a 22-year-old is hearing that or whether the J-schools are lining their own pockets with these kids' misguided dreams. And if you think my version is a trope, then you have been spending way more time in an ivory tower than in a newsroom the past 10 years.

I also know people who lack one of your three necessary ingredients. But I know a lot who have them all and it doesn't matter.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

About five years ago, someone told me that 97 percent of print journalists will never make $50K in a year.

That seems impossible because almost everyone at a bigger paper makes $50K a year, but if you think of every other smaller and medium-sized paper, maybe it really is true.

 

[Piotr Rasputin]

I think it's still a reasonable expectation. I'm 25 years in and still going (the teaching is just on the side). And from what I gather from your posts, it's your choice that you're not still in the biz.

It's not an easy business; I know that. But if you're talented, persistent and FLEXIBLE, you can survive and even thrive.

I am JackS' eternal sense of optimism.