Canada Withdraws From Kyoto Protocol

[Azrael]

Except (says the devil's advocate), we're the world's big polluter, too. So why shouldn't we do the "heavy lifting?" (Even China's MPG requirements are higher than ours.)

 

[Ben_Hecht]

Except (says the devil's advocate), we're the world's big polluter, too. So why shouldn't we do the "heavy lifting?" (Even China's MPG requirements are higher than ours.)

People know I have strong feelings on the issue as a whole, and I've repeatedly said we shouldn't just twiddle our thumbs, exploit everything to the max, and wait for the Rapture. We should lead in showing responsibility.

But the original proposal completely blew China and India. Which is why our vote against it was so emphatic.

 

[Azrael]

But the original proposal completely blew China and India.

I don't understand what that means.

Or what it has to do with any US contribution to reducing greenhouse gases (says the DA). But at the time the protocols were being negotiated, neither China nor India had anywhere near the leverage they have now.

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

 

[YankeeFan]

But the original proposal completely blew China and India.

I don't understand what that means.

Or what it has to do with any US contribution to reducing greenhouse gases (says the DA). But at the time the protocols were being negotiated, neither China nor India had anywhere near the leverage they have now.

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

If environmentalists had their way, no.

The idea of a billion Chinese or Indians all owning their won car freaks them out. We have to keep them on the farm.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Except (says the devil's advocate), we're the world's big polluter, too. So why shouldn't we do the "heavy lifting?" (Even China's MPG requirements are higher than ours.)

People know I have strong feelings on the issue as a whole, and I've repeatedly said we shouldn't just twiddle our thumbs, exploit everything to the max, and wait for the Rapture. We should lead in showing responsibility.

But the original proposal completely blew China and India. Which is why our vote against it was so emphatic.

What Ben said.

"Responsibility" yes. But "responsibility" shouldn't mean, "Cede our economic status."

It's a tough nut to crack, honestly. We got to build our economy on fossil fuels before we realized that they were bad for the environment and, in particular, caused climate change. So I don't feel we are morally on the hook for past emissions. On the other hand, China and India feel they should receive a, "Get out of jail free" card now, too. Strange part is that nobody has more to lose from global warming than India. It may practically cease to exist as a nation as we know it if warming comes in at the high or even medium range that the models are predicting.

There are countries that have a lot to lose from global warming, mostly developing nations, and countries that have a lot to lose from cutting emissions, like the U.S., Europe, and China. Other than a moral responsibility, which is neutralized by a moral responsibility to its own citizens to keep the economy grinding, the U.S. has almost no incentive to kick in right now. Because of our wealth, we can adapt easier than pretty much any other nation. Other than, say Russia, which actually stands to gain from global warming, even in the long-term.

This is a complicated problem requiring complicated solutions, on a political scale that the world has seldom if ever seen.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

As I kind of allude to in the prior post, I don't buy this, though I understand that it's a valid argument and the one that China and India and others certainly advance. Again, when we went through the Industrial Revolution, we didn't realize that we were harming the environment. They are more than welcome to have an Industrial Revolution. But with modern ingenuity, like we did. Not just by copycatting an obsolete blueprint.

And, yes, it troubles me that we essentially got to rise to power on the strength of an accident of history - our fortuitous ignorance about the costs of our industry. Then again, a lot of things about how we got to rise to power trouble me, not least of all how we eat turkey once a year to celebrate genocide. But that's neither here nor there.

 

[YankeeFan]

Jeez, ****, get a grip.

Alternate post: Calm down ****.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Jeez, ****, get a grip.

Alternate post: Calm down ****.

Also: Something about "meds."

 

[Double J]

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

As I kind of allude to in the prior post, I don't buy this, though I understand that it's a valid argument and the one that China and India and others certainly advance. Again, when we went through the Industrial Revolution, we didn't realize that we were harming the environment. They are more than welcome to have an Industrial Revolution. But with modern ingenuity, like we did. Not just by copycatting an obsolete blueprint.

And, yes, it troubles me that we essentially got to rise to power on the strength of an accident of history - our fortuitous ignorance about the costs of our industry. Then again, a lot of things about how we got to rise to power trouble me, not least of all how we eat turkey once a year to celebrate genocide. But that's neither here nor there.

My ancestor was the governor at Plymouth on the occasion of that very first Thanksgiving. I celebrate the holiday twice a year. ;D

 

[YGBFKM]

I think ham is a better genocide-celebrating food.

 

[SpeedTchr]

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

As I kind of allude to in the prior post, I don't buy this, though I understand that it's a valid argument and the one that China and India and others certainly advance. Again, when we went through the Industrial Revolution, we didn't realize that we were harming the environment. They are more than welcome to have an Industrial Revolution. But with modern ingenuity, like we did. Not just by copycatting an obsolete blueprint.

And, yes, it troubles me that we essentially got to rise to power on the strength of an accident of history - our fortuitous ignorance about the costs of our industry. Then again, a lot of things about how we got to rise to power trouble me, not least of all how we eat turkey once a year to celebrate genocide. But that's neither here nor there.

My ancestor was the governor at Plymouth on the occasion of that very first Thanksgiving. I celebrate the holiday twice a year. ;D

Wait just a cotton-pickin' minute... are we related?

 

[Double J]

Besides, shouldn't other countries get their Industrial Revolution, too?

As I kind of allude to in the prior post, I don't buy this, though I understand that it's a valid argument and the one that China and India and others certainly advance. Again, when we went through the Industrial Revolution, we didn't realize that we were harming the environment. They are more than welcome to have an Industrial Revolution. But with modern ingenuity, like we did. Not just by copycatting an obsolete blueprint.

And, yes, it troubles me that we essentially got to rise to power on the strength of an accident of history - our fortuitous ignorance about the costs of our industry. Then again, a lot of things about how we got to rise to power trouble me, not least of all how we eat turkey once a year to celebrate genocide. But that's neither here nor there.

My ancestor was the governor at Plymouth on the occasion of that very first Thanksgiving. I celebrate the holiday twice a year. ;D

Wait just a cotton-pickin' minute... are we related?

If you're from this guy too, then yes we are.

 

[SpeedTchr]

That's the guy!

 

[Double J]

He's my ninth-great-grandfather. At least I think it's ninth. I'd have to look at my files to be sure of the generation, but, yep - I'm a direct descendant of Bradford through my mother. Her father was something like a ninth-generation New Englander on both sides of his family.

As far as I'm aware, though, we only have the one Mayflower passenger in our background. But we got the big guy - the original governator. ;D

 

[Starman]

Gee, all I have is Roger Conant, the founder/first governor of Salem, Mass., and the Warlock of Salem, Giles Corey.

 

[Double J]

The Warlock of Salem?

 

[Starman]

No, him.