AP: Don't call them illegal

[deskslave]

I'm more pissed off about the fact that they made under way one word in all uses.

 

[Tom Petty]

Morphing and softening language as a way to shift or shape a debate is a tool of the intellectually dishonest.

For instance, people need to stay in the realm of "pro-abortion" and "anti-abortion," rather than hiding behind coattails of "-choice" and "-life." Same with vague blanket words like "fairness," which can be turned and flipped every which way.

It's mumbo-jumbo to play that "people aren't illegal, their actions are illegal" nonsense. They're people. They're human beings. But based on how they immigrate, they are illegal. The action is inherent in the label, and they took that action illegally.

I suppose we could call them trespassers. Or intruders. Or line-jumping thieves.
I prefer RickStain's "unauthorized immigrants" to the "undocumented" silliness, but even that softens the offense of breaching sovereign borders. Seems to put more of the onus on those who might (or "should") authorize, as opposed to the transgressors.

What term would the AP use for U.S. citizens who tried to barge illegally across other nations' borders? "Jailed Americans?" Maybe "dead Americans?"

when joe montana walks down the street in his hometown, should every person that walks past him greet him simply as MVP? no? and why is that?

jesus christ, if it were you, me or capt. obvious in these people's shoes, we'd have made the same choices as them. we would have tried to have made a better life for ourselves and our families ... and any person who says differently is most likely either lazy or lying.

 

[Captain Obvious]

It's not a crime to be in the country without a visa. Sneaking into the country is a misdemeanor.

A misdemeanor isn't a crime?

Since when?

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, IF.

 

[Joe Williams]

when joe montana walks down the street in his hometown, should every person that walks past him greet him simply as MVP? no? and why is that?

jesus christ, if it were you, me or capt. obvious in these people's shoes, we'd have made the same choices as them. we would have tried to have made a better life for ourselves and our families ... and any person who says differently is most likely either lazy or lying.

That's about as phony and strawman as it gets, Tom. No one is saying address these people as "Hi, Illegal Immigrant." But that is what they are, and to refer to groups of people by the thing they have in common -- they breached the borders of this country "illegally," without following the process to citizenship -- is simply to preserve clarity and to keep the discussion straight. What, we can't refer to kids studying abroad as "exchange students." I know we don't go around saying, "Hi, Exchange Student." What the F does that false construct have to do with anything?

You're better than that, man.

As I said, "unauthorized" would work too, IMO, but "undocumented" is squishy and ultimately a shaded partial-truth. The sudden urgency to alter the reference is driven by politics and political correctness.

Don't deny the option for those desperate-for-their-families people to make a stand and improve their lots in life where they are, either. How do societies and cultures ever change and improve? Elect leaders, etc. Skipping the process for entering this country and further burdening a system already hemorrhaging red ink isn't noble, either. Just cuz a guys' family is hungry doesn't make it OK to steal from the grocer.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Can anyone tell the difference between someone who crossed the border illegally or those who overstayed their visa? Those who overstay their visa make up about half of all "unauthorized immigrants."

 

[Azrael]

Here's AP's explanation:

blog.ap.org/2013/04/02/illegal-immigrant-no-more/

 

[Joe Williams]

Can anyone tell the difference between someone who crossed the border illegally or those who overstayed their visa? Those who overstay their visa make up about half of all "unauthorized immigrants."

So that's an argument for precision and differentiation.

Some unauthorized immigrants are undocumented. Some are here illegally because they crossed the border unlawfully from the start. Why such resistance to clarity? Fretting over feelings? The former is essential to the AP's business, the latter is not.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Can anyone tell the difference between someone who crossed the border illegally or those who overstayed their visa? Those who overstay their visa make up about half of all "unauthorized immigrants."

So that's an argument for precision and differentiation.

Some unauthorized immigrants are undocumented. Some are here illegally because they crossed the border unlawfully from the start. Why such resistance to clarity? Fretting over feelings? The former is essential to the AP's business, the latter is not.

I'm not resistant to clarity. You are if you think "illegal immigrant" is appropriate to describe 50 percent of "undocumented immigrants" who came legally but overstayed their visa.

 

[Armchair_QB]

when joe montana walks down the street in his hometown, should every person that walks past him greet him simply as MVP? no? and why is that?

jesus christ, if it were you, me or capt. obvious in these people's shoes, we'd have made the same choices as them. we would have tried to have made a better life for ourselves and our families ... and any person who says differently is most likely either lazy or lying.

That's about as phony and strawman as it gets, Tom. No one is saying address these people as "Hi, Illegal Immigrant." But that is what they are, and to refer to groups of people by the thing they have in common -- they breached the borders of this country "illegally," without following the process to citizenship -- is simply to preserve clarity and to keep the discussion straight. What, we can't refer to kids studying abroad as "exchange students." I know we don't go around saying, "Hi, Exchange Student." What the F does that false construct have to do with anything?

You're better than that, man.

As I said, "unauthorized" would work too, IMO, but "undocumented" is squishy and ultimately a shaded partial-truth. The sudden urgency to alter the reference is driven by politics and political correctness.

Don't deny the option for those desperate-for-their-families people to make a stand and improve their lots in life where they are, either. How do societies and cultures ever change and improve? Elect leaders, etc. Skipping the process for entering this country and further burdening a system already hemorrhaging red ink isn't noble, either. Just cuz a guys' family is hungry doesn't make it OK to steal from the grocer.

No he's not.

 

[Tom Petty]

when joe montana walks down the street in his hometown, should every person that walks past him greet him simply as MVP? no? and why is that?

jesus christ, if it were you, me or capt. obvious in these people's shoes, we'd have made the same choices as them. we would have tried to have made a better life for ourselves and our families ... and any person who says differently is most likely either lazy or lying.

That's about as phony and strawman as it gets, Tom. No one is saying address these people as "Hi, Illegal Immigrant." But that is what they are, and to refer to groups of people by the thing they have in common -- they breached the borders of this country "illegally," without following the process to citizenship -- is simply to preserve clarity and to keep the discussion straight. What, we can't refer to kids studying abroad as "exchange students." I know we don't go around saying, "Hi, Exchange Student." What the F does that false construct have to do with anything?

You're better than that, man.

As I said, "unauthorized" would work too, IMO, but "undocumented" is squishy and ultimately a shaded partial-truth. The sudden urgency to alter the reference is driven by politics and political correctness.

Don't deny the option for those desperate-for-their-families people to make a stand and improve their lots in life where they are, either. How do societies and cultures ever change and improve? Elect leaders, etc. Skipping the process for entering this country and further burdening a system already hemorrhaging red ink isn't noble, either. Just cuz a guys' family is hungry doesn't make it OK to steal from the grocer.

that's cool, dawg. if you can't see that the very people who used to openly call folks ******s, fags and chinks are the same folks who froth at the mouth to publicly trash these "illegals," and every other person of the same skin color, i'm ok with that.
basically, a bunch of rednecks are able to take one act taken by mexicans and turn it racial ... an act i sure as to hell would take if i were in their shoes. so if you want to support allowing those people to point at every brown-skinned person in this country - see arizona - as an illegal, have right at it.

 

[Tom Petty]

when joe montana walks down the street in his hometown, should every person that walks past him greet him simply as MVP? no? and why is that?

jesus christ, if it were you, me or capt. obvious in these people's shoes, we'd have made the same choices as them. we would have tried to have made a better life for ourselves and our families ... and any person who says differently is most likely either lazy or lying.

That's about as phony and strawman as it gets, Tom. No one is saying address these people as "Hi, Illegal Immigrant." But that is what they are, and to refer to groups of people by the thing they have in common -- they breached the borders of this country "illegally," without following the process to citizenship -- is simply to preserve clarity and to keep the discussion straight. What, we can't refer to kids studying abroad as "exchange students." I know we don't go around saying, "Hi, Exchange Student." What the F does that false construct have to do with anything?

You're better than that, man.

As I said, "unauthorized" would work too, IMO, but "undocumented" is squishy and ultimately a shaded partial-truth. The sudden urgency to alter the reference is driven by politics and political correctness.

Don't deny the option for those desperate-for-their-families people to make a stand and improve their lots in life where they are, either. How do societies and cultures ever change and improve? Elect leaders, etc. Skipping the process for entering this country and further burdening a system already hemorrhaging red ink isn't noble, either. Just cuz a guys' family is hungry doesn't make it OK to steal from the grocer.

No he's not.

damn, i'm waiting for another five-second vid so you can drive home your point, IF.

 

[Joe Williams]

Crock, TP.
Whichever border gets breached, by whatever group regardless of ethnicity, this applies.
Cling to your identity politics all you want. But it's dishonest if you truly want to debate this issue.
Someone -- anyone -- jumps the line or doesn't follow steps necessary to gain citizenship, they're illegal. Could be from Dublin, far as I'm concerned.
When the hell are we going to set aside all the pigment and genitalia bull**** and focus on that "content of character" stuff MLK preached? Ever?
Or would that strip too many people of a permanent constituency and an argument diversion?

 

[JRoyal]

I can just feel the love on this thread.

 

[Ace]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

 

[da man]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

And?

 

[Ace]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

And?

Blithely saying that these people should wait in line and follow the procedures to get into the USA would be like me telling most people here that if they don't like their sports writing pay, they should become a CEO.

 

[da man]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

And?

Blithely saying that these people should wait in line and follow the procedures to get into the USA would be like me telling most people here that if they don't like their sports writing pay, they should become a CEO.

Does everyone in the world have the innate right to come live in the U.S.?

 

[Ace]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

And?

Blithely saying that these people should wait in line and follow the procedures to get into the USA would be like me telling most people here that if they don't like their sports writing pay, they should become a CEO.

Does everyone in the world have the innate right to come live in the U.S.?

No, but at least be honest and say we don't want those people here instead of acting like they could have followed the rules and come here legally. Most couldn't.

But I see your point. Imagine where we would be as a country if we had opened our borders and let all sorts of poor European trash into the country, for example.

 

[Norrin Radd]

First heard more than a decade ago that "undocumented worker" was the ideal term.

AP is behind the times.

 

[93Devil]

You guys do realize that if most of these folks "followed the due process to citizenship" they would never get into this country, don't you.

And?

Blithely saying that these people should wait in line and follow the procedures to get into the USA would be like me telling most people here that if they don't like their sports writing pay, they should become a CEO.

Does everyone in the world have the innate right to come live in the U.S.?

Yes. We have this thing in New York inviting them to come, which all of my ancestors did in the past 100 years or so.

http://thedabbler.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/newcolossus.jpg

Immigrants of the 1800s and 1900s helped make this country great, and now people want to tell these immigrants to stay home.

Under today's mindset, we would have never had living in America a Maravich, DiMaggio, Ruth, Ditka, Musial, Lombardi, Namath, Paterno... the list goes on and on.