Alan Dershowitz Finds The Bottom Of The Barrel.

[Fenian_Bastard]

He -- again! -- defends torture and argues this case:

"There are some who claim that torture is a nonissue because it never works--it only produces false information. This is simply not true, as evidenced by the many decent members of the French Resistance who, under Nazi torture, disclosed the locations of their closest friends and relatives."

Wow.
Just ****ing wow.

Here's the whole deal.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010832

 

[Flying Headbutt]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

 

[Ace]

Well, of course torture works with the French. Goes without saying.

 

[heyabbott]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

 

[jgmacg]

What the White House really needs to push this thing favorably into the soft brainparts of the American public - as they're obviously trying to do this week - is a slogan. Try some yourself, they're fun!

- Torture, it's not just for Nazis anymore!

- I'm not a doctor, but I was tortured at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

- When the CIA needs to extract a confession, they use Duracell.

- A day without torture is like a day without sunshine. But you'll get used to not having sunshine.

- Can you hear me now? Through this canvas hood? Really?

- Have it your way. Briefly. Then have it ours.

- Things go better with Coke...and a cattle prod to the genitals.

- Where's the ARGHHHHHHH!

- If detention lasts more than four hours, call your doctor.

- Virginia: It's for Waterboarders.

 

[Ace]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

 

[zeke12]

My Slogan:

Glug, glug, *****.

 

[poindexter]

What the White House really needs to push this thing favorably into the soft brainparts of the American public - as they're obviously trying to do this week - is a slogan. Try some yourself, they're fun!

- Torture, it's not just for Nazis anymore!

- I'm not a doctor, but I was tortured at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

- When the CIA needs to extract a confession, they use Duracell.

- A day without torture is like a day without sunshine. But you'll get used to not having sunshine.

- Can you hear me now? Through this canvas hood? Really?

- Have it your way. Briefly. Then have it ours.

- Things go better with Coke...and a cattle prod to the genitals.

- Where's the ARGHHHHHHH!

- If detention lasts more than four hours, call your doctor.

- Virginia: It's for Waterboarders.

F all that. Four words is all W needs:

- God approves of torture.

 

[heyabbott]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

Why does it have to be about muslim terrorists? What if someone kidnaps your daughter and you find out a friend or relative of kidnapper. Is it completely off the table to use physical coercion to find your child?

I'm asking whether someone believes that the use of directed force is so morally and unconditionally evil that they would sacrifice their child for that belief.

As far as why muslims hate us, I'm sure a people that consider beheading hostages an activity worth celebrating and publicizing have no compunction against physical violence. It's a question of our morality, not theirs.

 

[Ace]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

Why does it have to be about muslim terrorists? What if someone kidnaps your daughter and you find out a friend or relative of kidnapper. Is it completely off the table to use physical coercion to find your child?

I'm asking whether someone believes that the use of directed force is so morally and unconditionally evil that they would sacrifice their child for that belief.

As far as why muslims hate us, I'm sure a people that consider beheading hostages an activity worth celebrating and publicizing have no compunction against physical violence. It's a question of our morality, not theirs.

If someone kidnapped my kid and I got my hands on them, sure, I'd want to beat the information out of them.

But the government should be above that. It should not sanction torture and imprison people with no opportunity to see a lawyer.

If some cop grabbed some kid off the street suspected of holding up a Kwiki-Mart and waterboarded him for a few hours, the cop would wind up in jail.

And he should.

 

[heyabbott]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

Why does it have to be about muslim terrorists? What if someone kidnaps your daughter and you find out a friend or relative of kidnapper. Is it completely off the table to use physical coercion to find your child?

I'm asking whether someone believes that the use of directed force is so morally and unconditionally evil that they would sacrifice their child for that belief.

As far as why muslims hate us, I'm sure a people that consider beheading hostages an activity worth celebrating and publicizing have no compunction against physical violence. It's a question of our morality, not theirs.

If someone kidnapped my kid and I got my hands on them, sure, I'd want to beat the information out of them.

But the government should be above that. It should not sanction torture and imprison people with no opportunity to see a lawyer.

If some cop grabbed some kid off the street suspected of holding up a Kwiki-Mart and waterboarded him for a few hours, the cop would wind up in jail.

And he should.

The government, essentially, is your agent. If you are willing to use physical force, not as punishment but as a means of protecting another, shouldn't your agent have the same leeway. I'm not talking the use of indiscriminate torture, but as at least a tool.

What about the guy who turns himself into the police and said he just buried a little girl in a box, somewhere, and he'll tell you where the body is, in 24 hours, when he's sure she's dead, because he knows she's alive right now and gets perverse pleasure in knowing she'll die and knowing the government in impotent to act.

 

[Webster]

I could see a situation -- the ticking bomb or the kidnapped -- in which the combination of the imminent threat of grievous harm and the certainty that the prisoner is guilty make it so that the use of torture might be appropriate.

But what this administration has done is to broaden that extremely limited circumstance to any situation which it deems to be appropriate. If we pick up someone in Basra, he might know about a plot on the US, he might not -- let's torture him to be sure. On top of that, through their broad (and some might say tortured) interpretation of executive/war powers, they are have stated that they are the only branch which makes that decision, with no oversight. Add to the fact that they also decide what torture is -- basically nothing meets that threshhold because they have already stated that they don't torture. What that does is to allow this administration to continue to do whatever the heck it please, all in the name of alleged national security.

 

[Ace]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

Why does it have to be about muslim terrorists? What if someone kidnaps your daughter and you find out a friend or relative of kidnapper. Is it completely off the table to use physical coercion to find your child?

I'm asking whether someone believes that the use of directed force is so morally and unconditionally evil that they would sacrifice their child for that belief.

As far as why muslims hate us, I'm sure a people that consider beheading hostages an activity worth celebrating and publicizing have no compunction against physical violence. It's a question of our morality, not theirs.

If someone kidnapped my kid and I got my hands on them, sure, I'd want to beat the information out of them.

But the government should be above that. It should not sanction torture and imprison people with no opportunity to see a lawyer.

If some cop grabbed some kid off the street suspected of holding up a Kwiki-Mart and waterboarded him for a few hours, the cop would wind up in jail.

And he should.

The government, essentially, is your agent. If you are willing to use physical force, not as punishment but as a means of protecting another, shouldn't your agent have the same leeway. I'm not talking the use of indiscriminate torture, but as at least a tool.

What about the guy who turns himself into the police and said he just buried a little girl in a box, somewhere, and he'll tell you where the body is, in 24 hours, when he's sure she's dead, because he knows she's alive right now and gets perverse pleasure in knowing she'll die and knowing the government in impotent to act.

With the writer's strike and all, maybe you could sell that script to CSI: Whatever.

 

[jgmacg]

Can we please not run through the list of plot outlines for next season's '24' every time the discussion turns to a national policy of torture. Please?

You want something to talk about? Talk about this:

We're kidnapping women and children.

Watch last night's 'Frontline.' Pay particular attention to the renditions from Kenya to Ethiopia.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_1_frontlineworldbrextraordinaryrendition_2007-11-07

 

[JR]

My Slogan:

Glug, glug, *****.

How about, "Surf's up!"

 

[heyabbott]

I could see a situation -- the ticking bomb or the kidnapped -- in which the combination of the imminent threat of grievous harm and the certainty that the prisoner is guilty make it so that the use of torture might be appropriate.

But what this administration has done is to broaden that extremely limited circumstance to any situation which it deems to be appropriate. If we pick up someone in Basra, he might know about a plot on the US, he might not -- let's torture him to be sure. On top of that, through their broad (and some might say tortured) interpretation of executive/war powers, they are have stated that they are the only branch which makes that decision, with no oversight. Add to the fact that they also decide what torture is -- basically nothing meets that threshhold because they have already stated that they don't torture. What that does is to allow this administration to continue to do whatever the heck it please, all in the name of alleged national security.

So the question then isn't whether the use of physical coercion is always wrong, the question is does Bush et. al. have the moral authority and judgment to make the decision to use this type of coercion. The answer is obviously, NO.

 

[Oggiedoggie]

Maybe I should just start a running torture thread, where all the loons who are all of a sudden willing to compromise, but only our American values and never anywhere else, can be grouped together.

Just so I'm clear about your position, there is never, any, circumstance by which the use of physical, psychological or emotional coercion is ever permissible.

You know, what really perplexed me about all these Muslim terrorists was why do they want to attack us? What have we done to them? Why do they hate us?

At least that question doesn't perplex me anymore.

Why does it have to be about muslim terrorists? What if someone kidnaps your daughter and you find out a friend or relative of kidnapper. Is it completely off the table to use physical coercion to find your child?

I'm asking whether someone believes that the use of directed force is so morally and unconditionally evil that they would sacrifice their child for that belief.

As far as why muslims hate us, I'm sure a people that consider beheading hostages an activity worth celebrating and publicizing have no compunction against physical violence. It's a question of our morality, not theirs.

If someone kidnapped my kid and I got my hands on them, sure, I'd want to beat the information out of them.

But the government should be above that. It should not sanction torture and imprison people with no opportunity to see a lawyer.

If some cop grabbed some kid off the street suspected of holding up a Kwiki-Mart and waterboarded him for a few hours, the cop would wind up in jail.

And he should.

The government, essentially, is your agent. If you are willing to use physical force, not as punishment but as a means of protecting another, shouldn't your agent have the same leeway. I'm not talking the use of indiscriminate torture, but as at least a tool.

What about the guy who turns himself into the police and said he just buried a little girl in a box, somewhere, and he'll tell you where the body is, in 24 hours, when he's sure she's dead, because he knows she's alive right now and gets perverse pleasure in knowing she'll die and knowing the government in impotent to act.

With the writer's strike and all, maybe you could sell that script to CSI: Whatever.

I think that plot is stolen from one of the "Dirty Harry" movies.

I know for certain that if my child were kidnapped, no matter how distressed I was, I would not begin picking folks off the street at random and trying to torture whatever information I could out of them. I'd end up going through a lot of people and probably doing a lot of damage for which I would probably be held accountable. The same might be true of the Bush administration.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

Torture is always wrong.

 

[Smallpotatoes]

Torture is always wrong.

Amen.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

And even if it weren't, there has to be a better argument for it than "Hey, it worked for the Gestapo!"
Poor Ken Burns. He wasted all that time.