AL MVP

[MankyJimy]

This is bulls&@t. I can't believe they actually gave it to a pitcher when there are position players deserving of the award. Jeter was my pick but I would've settled for Cabrera or Cano.

Jeter - Zero votes.

Which I guess means he finished tied with a bunch of other guys for DFL ... dead ****ing last!

Jeter did win the MankyJimy Award for "best tasting jizz in the majors," as determined by MankyJimy.

Funny. No such award exists, but I think that sounds like a great project for Twogloves!

 

[outofplace]

And just in case Manky wasn't doing enough to flush this one, Zag decides to add his own special brand of foolishness and intellectual dishonesty to the festivities.

Your just mad that your heroes from Pittsburgh - three of them starting on offense for the Chiefs - all sucked tonight and got their ass kicked on TV.....

Oh, this is perfect. Comes in here making fun of my use of the quote function, then he butchers it himself. Thank you for being your usual entertaining self, Zag.

 

[zagoshe]

And just in case Manky wasn't doing enough to flush this one, Zag decides to add his own special brand of foolishness and intellectual dishonesty to the festivities.

Your just mad that your heroes from Pittsburgh - three of them starting on offense for the Chiefs - all sucked tonight and got their ass kicked on TV.....

Oh, this is perfect. Comes in here making fun of my use of the quote function, then he butchers it himself. Thank you for being your usual entertaining self, Zag.

Stop whining about your Pittsburgh heroes sucking ass on National TV. yinzer = loser ha ha ha ha

 

[sgreenwell]

Jesus, these exchanges make me long for a MankyJim soliloquy on Jeter. "The leaves had turned brown and fallen off the trees, as though they seemingly developed an apathy for life itself, but yet The Captain practiced on as the dull Autumn Sun retreated below the horizon of The Great New Stadium."

 

[outofplace]

And just in case Manky wasn't doing enough to flush this one, Zag decides to add his own special brand of foolishness and intellectual dishonesty to the festivities.

Your just mad that your heroes from Pittsburgh - three of them starting on offense for the Chiefs - all sucked tonight and got their ass kicked on TV.....

Oh, this is perfect. Comes in here making fun of my use of the quote function, then he butchers it himself. Thank you for being your usual entertaining self, Zag.

I am back in stalker mode again, so I can't even admit my mistakes.

There. Try that next time. Honesty would be a wonderful change of pace for you.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

Headline:

Verlander goes 14-1 against AL Central, 11-4 against good teams, to win MVP

How about: "Verlander posts 2.08 ERA against teams above .500, 2.86 against teams below"

So much easier not to consider run support and how those records were made and just spout off, huh?

Except that he won the MVP b/c of his W/L record.

I disagree. The wins are just a byproduct of his dominance - a 2.40 ERA over 251 innings - for a division-winning team.

Verlander had 8.5 WAR, according to the Baseball Reference formula. Tied with Bautista. And 1.3 more than Ellsbury.

If he went 22-8 -- double his record against everyone outside the AL Central -- he doesn't sniff the MVP.

Same numbers? Just less run support?

Right, if he did everything the same yet had a 22-8 record, no chance he gets MVP. Maybe he would get a couple votes, like Felix Hernandez last year. They put together pretty much the same seasons, except Verlander was credited with a much better record.

Not saying that Verlander doesn't deserve the MVP. Just that the actual reason he won MVP was his record.

Back that up. Prove it.

Oh, that's right. You can't.

You are ignoring a huge difference between the season Hernandez had and the one Verlander did. Verlander's team won its division. Hernandez's team in 2010 was terrible. Team performance is a huge factor in the MVP voting.

And no, that is not the same as his record.

So you are saying Verlander won the MVP because everyone else on his team was good?

If Papelbon doesn't blow that save in the Red Sox last game, does Ellsbury win the MVP?

 

[Gehrig]

If Verlander wins 20 games instead of 24, and the rest of his numbers are the same, does he win the MVP?

 

[outofplace]

Headline:

Verlander goes 14-1 against AL Central, 11-4 against good teams, to win MVP

How about: "Verlander posts 2.08 ERA against teams above .500, 2.86 against teams below"

So much easier not to consider run support and how those records were made and just spout off, huh?

Except that he won the MVP b/c of his W/L record.

I disagree. The wins are just a byproduct of his dominance - a 2.40 ERA over 251 innings - for a division-winning team.

Verlander had 8.5 WAR, according to the Baseball Reference formula. Tied with Bautista. And 1.3 more than Ellsbury.

If he went 22-8 -- double his record against everyone outside the AL Central -- he doesn't sniff the MVP.

Same numbers? Just less run support?

Right, if he did everything the same yet had a 22-8 record, no chance he gets MVP. Maybe he would get a couple votes, like Felix Hernandez last year. They put together pretty much the same seasons, except Verlander was credited with a much better record.

Not saying that Verlander doesn't deserve the MVP. Just that the actual reason he won MVP was his record.

Back that up. Prove it.

Oh, that's right. You can't.

You are ignoring a huge difference between the season Hernandez had and the one Verlander did. Verlander's team won its division. Hernandez's team in 2010 was terrible. Team performance is a huge factor in the MVP voting.

And no, that is not the same as his record.

So you are saying Verlander won the MVP because everyone else on his team was good?

If Papelbon doesn't blow that save in the Red Sox last game, does Ellsbury win the MVP?

Wrong again, TSP. I'm saying he won because he was dominant and his team was good. Is it silly that Papelbon blowing that save probably cost Ellsbury votes? Sure. But that's the reality of MVP voting.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

Headline:

Verlander goes 14-1 against AL Central, 11-4 against good teams, to win MVP

How about: "Verlander posts 2.08 ERA against teams above .500, 2.86 against teams below"

So much easier not to consider run support and how those records were made and just spout off, huh?

Except that he won the MVP b/c of his W/L record.

I disagree. The wins are just a byproduct of his dominance - a 2.40 ERA over 251 innings - for a division-winning team.

Verlander had 8.5 WAR, according to the Baseball Reference formula. Tied with Bautista. And 1.3 more than Ellsbury.

If he went 22-8 -- double his record against everyone outside the AL Central -- he doesn't sniff the MVP.

Same numbers? Just less run support?

Right, if he did everything the same yet had a 22-8 record, no chance he gets MVP. Maybe he would get a couple votes, like Felix Hernandez last year. They put together pretty much the same seasons, except Verlander was credited with a much better record.

Not saying that Verlander doesn't deserve the MVP. Just that the actual reason he won MVP was his record.

Back that up. Prove it.

Oh, that's right. You can't.

You are ignoring a huge difference between the season Hernandez had and the one Verlander did. Verlander's team won its division. Hernandez's team in 2010 was terrible. Team performance is a huge factor in the MVP voting.

And no, that is not the same as his record.

So you are saying Verlander won the MVP because everyone else on his team was good?

If Papelbon doesn't blow that save in the Red Sox last game, does Ellsbury win the MVP?

Wrong again, TSP. I'm saying he won because he was dominant and his team was good. Is it silly that Papelbon blowing that save probably cost Ellsbury votes? Sure. But that's the reality of MVP voting.

You're implying that if, say, the Indians won one more game than the Tigers and everything else was the same, then Verlander would not have won the MVP because his team would not have won its division.

 

[outofplace]

Headline:

Verlander goes 14-1 against AL Central, 11-4 against good teams, to win MVP

How about: "Verlander posts 2.08 ERA against teams above .500, 2.86 against teams below"

So much easier not to consider run support and how those records were made and just spout off, huh?

Except that he won the MVP b/c of his W/L record.

I disagree. The wins are just a byproduct of his dominance - a 2.40 ERA over 251 innings - for a division-winning team.

Verlander had 8.5 WAR, according to the Baseball Reference formula. Tied with Bautista. And 1.3 more than Ellsbury.

If he went 22-8 -- double his record against everyone outside the AL Central -- he doesn't sniff the MVP.

Same numbers? Just less run support?

Right, if he did everything the same yet had a 22-8 record, no chance he gets MVP. Maybe he would get a couple votes, like Felix Hernandez last year. They put together pretty much the same seasons, except Verlander was credited with a much better record.

Not saying that Verlander doesn't deserve the MVP. Just that the actual reason he won MVP was his record.

Back that up. Prove it.

Oh, that's right. You can't.

You are ignoring a huge difference between the season Hernandez had and the one Verlander did. Verlander's team won its division. Hernandez's team in 2010 was terrible. Team performance is a huge factor in the MVP voting.

And no, that is not the same as his record.

So you are saying Verlander won the MVP because everyone else on his team was good?

If Papelbon doesn't blow that save in the Red Sox last game, does Ellsbury win the MVP?

Wrong again, TSP. I'm saying he won because he was dominant and his team was good. Is it silly that Papelbon blowing that save probably cost Ellsbury votes? Sure. But that's the reality of MVP voting.

You're implying that if, say, the Indians won one more game than the Tigers and everything else was the same, then Verlander would not have won the MVP because his team would not have won its division.

Wrong again. I'm flat-out saying that it probably would have changed some votes. Maybe not enough to cost him the award, but it would have had an impact.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

So then I was right, you are saying he received votes for MVP because his teammates were good.

As you say, that is the reality of MVP voting. I don't disagree with this being the case. Verlander won the MVP because of his record and because his teammates were good, probably more so than because of his other pitching numbers.

 

[outofplace]

So then I was right, you are saying he received votes for MVP because his teammates were good.

As you say, that is the reality of MVP voting. I don't disagree with this being the case. Verlander won the MVP because of his record and because his teammates were good, probably more so than because of his other pitching numbers.

No, you are wrong. You said it was all about his won-loss record, which is overly simplistic and incorrect.

It was because he was dominant while playing for a winning team. The record was simply one reflection of the performance that earned him the MVP.

 

[zagoshe]

And just in case Manky wasn't doing enough to flush this one, Zag decides to add his own special brand of foolishness and intellectual dishonesty to the festivities.

Your just mad that your heroes from Pittsburgh - three of them starting on offense for the Chiefs - all sucked tonight and got their ass kicked on TV.....

Oh, this is perfect. Comes in here making fun of my use of the quote function, then he butchers it himself. Thank you for being your usual entertaining self, Zag.

I am back in stalker mode again, so I can't even admit my mistakes.

I'm a yinzer loser and my heroes got punked on MNF and now I am whining about it.

Fixed

 

[outofplace]

And just in case Manky wasn't doing enough to flush this one, Zag decides to add his own special brand of foolishness and intellectual dishonesty to the festivities.

Your just mad that your heroes from Pittsburgh - three of them starting on offense for the Chiefs - all sucked tonight and got their ass kicked on TV.....

Oh, this is perfect. Comes in here making fun of my use of the quote function, then he butchers it himself. Thank you for being your usual entertaining self, Zag.

I am back in stalker mode again, so I can't even admit my mistakes.

I'm a yinzer loser and my heroes got punked on MNF and now I am whining about it.

Fixed

It's much funnier if you are accurate. Where exactly did I complain about the Monday Night Football game? Also, why are you talking about that on a thread about the AL MVP?

Oh, that's right. Because you are in stalker mode again.

 

[ETN814]

Headline:

Verlander goes 14-1 against AL Central, 11-4 against good teams, to win MVP

How about: "Verlander posts 2.08 ERA against teams above .500, 2.86 against teams below"

So much easier not to consider run support and how those records were made and just spout off, huh?

Except that he won the MVP b/c of his W/L record.

I disagree. The wins are just a byproduct of his dominance - a 2.40 ERA over 251 innings - for a division-winning team.

Verlander had 8.5 WAR, according to the Baseball Reference formula. Tied with Bautista. And 1.3 more than Ellsbury.

If he went 22-8 -- double his record against everyone outside the AL Central -- he doesn't sniff the MVP.

Same numbers? Just less run support?

Right, if he did everything the same yet had a 22-8 record, no chance he gets MVP. Maybe he would get a couple votes, like Felix Hernandez last year. They put together pretty much the same seasons, except Verlander was credited with a much better record.

Not saying that Verlander doesn't deserve the MVP. Just that the actual reason he won MVP was his record.

Are you really still talking about things like record? That's probably the last thing people are looking at these days.

 

[ETN814]

So then I was right, you are saying he received votes for MVP because his teammates were good.

As you say, that is the reality of MVP voting. I don't disagree with this being the case. Verlander won the MVP because of his record and because his teammates were good, probably more so than because of his other pitching numbers.

I has nothing to do with his record and everything to do with the fact that he provided 8.5 more wins than a replacement player would have in his position, placing him tops in the American League. He was the Most Valuable Player in the American League ... The record is a byproduct.


** As calculated by Baseball Reference.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

So then I was right, you are saying he received votes for MVP because his teammates were good.

As you say, that is the reality of MVP voting. I don't disagree with this being the case. Verlander won the MVP because of his record and because his teammates were good, probably more so than because of his other pitching numbers.

I has nothing to do with his record and everything to do with the fact that he provided 8.5 more wins than a replacement player would have in his position, placing him tops in the American League. He was the Most Valuable Player in the American League ... The record is a byproduct.


** As calculated by Baseball Reference.

Yes. We all know how married the BBWAA is to those types of stats. They use 'em to figure out every award.

 

[ETN814]

So then I was right, you are saying he received votes for MVP because his teammates were good.

As you say, that is the reality of MVP voting. I don't disagree with this being the case. Verlander won the MVP because of his record and because his teammates were good, probably more so than because of his other pitching numbers.

I has nothing to do with his record and everything to do with the fact that he provided 8.5 more wins than a replacement player would have in his position, placing him tops in the American League. He was the Most Valuable Player in the American League ... The record is a byproduct.


** As calculated by Baseball Reference.

Yes. We all know how married the BBWAA is to those types of stats. They use 'em to figure out every award.

If you haven't noticed, there's been a shift.

2010 AL Cy Young winner Felix Hernandez was 13-12.
2009 AL Cy Young winner Zach Greinke won 16 games.
2009 NL Cy Young winner Tim Lincecum won 15 games.

The crusty guys who can't look beyond wins, losses and ERA are now in the minority. It might do you some good to go read about some of the MVP ballots that were cast. In the New England region, Peter Abraham, Michael Silverman and Brian MacPhearson all cite advanced metrics such as WAR. If you understand those metrics, certainly you understand that using a pitcher's record to evaluate his performance is the worst possible metric in the world.

 

[Della9250]

I think there has been a shift for Cy Young but not for MVP. The nebulous definition of MVP will keep it that way. When giving an honor for best pitcher, it doesn't have to matter what a team does.

 

[ETN814]

I think there has been a shift for Cy Young but not for MVP. The nebulous definition of MVP will keep it that way. When giving an honor for best pitcher, it doesn't have to matter what a team does.

Right, but wins were inconsequential in crowning Verlander. It's not like he would have won if he had a 5.00 ERA, ranked 25th in WAR, but went 32-0. Every advanced metric shows he was one of the most valuable players in the league, if not the most valuable. His record means nothing to many of those who voted for him. Suggesting so only shows that the person on the soapbox hasn't read the reasoning behind the votes that were cast. It comes from a place of ignorance.