The Assault on ‘Broken Windows’ Policing

[YankeeFan]

Bill Bratton and George Kelling defend the NYPD's policing methods in a WSJ op-ed:

Critics have a variety of arguments against the policy. Some allege that Broken Windows policing is discriminatory. Others claim it has no effect on serious crime. Still others suggest it leads to overincarceration or imposes a white, middle-class morality on urban populations. None of these criticisms stands up.

http://on.wSportsJournalists.com/1wS87Pe

 

[heyabbott]

Whats wrong with 'white middle-class morality' ?

 

[The Big Ragu]

Assault?

I was seeing more opposition to the quality-of-life policing 15 years ago than I am seeing today. They have also eased up a lot since the mid to late 90s through the early 2000s, on the kinds of quality of life things they were rousting people over.

That editorial is a bit of a strawman.

I don't think the typical New Yorker opposes broken windows policing, per se. They oppose a police force that occasionally gets out of control in how it treats certain people. To the extent that broken windows policing has made some cops think it is OK to smack people around when making arrests, or plant evidence to create arrests (things that keep coming up over and over again), I'd say those are the things most people oppose. Where is Bratton with his editorial about that?

 

[LongTimeListener]

Next week -- The World Was A Lot Safer When The Chokehold Was Legal

 

[YankeeFan]

Assault?
or plant evidence to create arrests (things that keep coming up over and over again)

Do you have some links to back up this claim?

 

[The Big Ragu]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/n...officers-and-unidentified-informers.html?_r=0

 

[The Big Ragu]

In case you want some links to back up the other part -- smacking people around. ... Here is just the latest from today:

http://nypost.com/2014/12/19/nypd-investigating-cop-who-punched-boy-during-arrest/
http://nypost.com/2014/12/19/nypd-investigating-cop-who-punched-boy-during-arrest/
Not even the recent PR problems for the NYPD made this idiot think twice before he rushed over throwing punches.

 

[YankeeFan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/n...officers-and-unidentified-informers.html?_r=0

Assuming everything in that article is true, it sounds like a problem limited to a very small group of cops, and not a broad problem, that keeps coming up again and again.

At least there's no claim of racism involved, as Gregory Jean-Baptiste is African-American.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

Whats wrong with 'white middle-class morality' ?

Because graffiti on buildings and subways is art, not vandalism.

 

[The Big Ragu]

1) These stories only come to light when the cops get caught -- something that doesn't happen often, because we have a system that continually convicts people on no evidence other than the word of a cop.
2) That was just one link. Do you really need me to post links to other instances from the last few years? For example, the cop who went to prison for planting drugs on someone, and the others that were implicated for doing the same thing in the narcotics unit. ... and the spate of stories after that from former NYPD saying it happens regularly because of arrest quotas?
3) Little of this is about overt racism, although when you get a bunch of lunkheads together and give them ridiculous authority over others, there are likely to be a few racists in the group. In the recent case, they not only were pressuring the cops to make gun arrests, they were actually giving out $1,000 rewards for "taking a gun off the street." Why would anyone be surprised that you'd then have cops planting guns on hopeless saps who they knew don't stand a chance in the criminal justice system?

In any case, you asked for your links. ... I went right for the story I read LAST WEEK. Is it a "broad" problem? Probably more broad than you think. Too broad for the innocent person who gets railroaded.

And again, just one instance -- and how many don't get caught -- 99 percent of them? -- is way too much. The presumption should NOT be in favor of the police. We live in a free society. If the police are denying anyone of their freedom, we should really be reexamining the authority of the police.

Still wondering about my original question. ... Where is Bratton's editorial about cops acting as if they are above the law? Because it's the thing people usually have a problem with, with regard to the police.

 

[cranberry]

Most New Yorkers don't have huge issues with "broken windows" policing; they have big problems with the general lack of accountability for cops who abuse their authority.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Everyone will admit there are bad cops mixed in with the bunch.

It just so happens that the cops accused of wrongdoing are never the actual bad cops, right?

 

[trifectarich]

Because graffiti on buildings and subways is art, not vandalism.

If I wanted a group of thugs to show up at my office building in the middle of the night with a box of spray paint, I'd put out a sign that says, "Please paint me."

 

[SnarkShark]

Everyone will admit there are bad cops mixed in with the bunch.

It just so happens that the cops accused of wrongdoing are never the actual bad cops, right?

This.

A discussion with someone on the cops' side of this argument always seems to include some sort of a line like this... "Sure, there are some bad cops out there."

But when one is actually caught doing something "bad," the default is always to defend them.

 

[YankeeFan]

This.

A discussion with someone on the cops' side of this argument always seems to include some sort of a line like this... "Sure, there are some bad cops out there."

But when one is actually caught accused doing something "bad," the default is always to defend them.

No one wants bad cops.

But, an accused cop deserves the same presumption of innocence that anyone else does. And, if you want to convict them of something, there needs to be evidence, not a narrative.

Now, should police departments take steps to identify, and fire, bad cops? Absolutely.

 

[SnarkShark]

No one wants bad cops.

But, an accused cop deserves the same presumption of innocence that anyone else does. And, if you want to convict them of something, there needs to be evidence, not a narrative.

Now, should police departments take steps to identify, and fire, bad cops? Absolutely.

Thank you for immediately illustrating the point I was making.

 

[The Big Ragu]

No, accused cops should absolutely be scrutinized in ways the rest of us aren't.

When a cop gets accused, it means that peoples' constitutional rights have potentially been violated. That is a different level of serious. When people are blase about that happening or potentially happening, it's the same as not respecting that you have those rights.

 

[cranberry]

The head of the police union in NYC has been attacking Mayor De Blasio in recent days, apparently fearing that (unlike the two mayors before him) De Blasio will try to hold cops to higher standards.

 

[heyabbott]

No one wants bad cops.

But, an accused cop deserves the same presumption of innocence that anyone else does. And, if you want to convict them of something, there needs to be evidence, not a narrative.

Now, should police departments take steps to identify, and fire, bad cops? Absolutely.

Bad cops, like bad teachers, are very difficult to cut loose.

 

[Boom_70]

The head of the police union in NYC has been attacking Mayor De Blasio in recent days, apparently fearing that (unlike the two mayors before him) De Blasio will try to hold cops to higher standards.

Don't forget that the PBA has been working on expired contract so has always been the case with NYC Uniformed services there is a lot of posturing going on.