Rumsfeld on 'kill team' photos: 'Much worse' than Abu Ghraib

[TheSportsPredictor]

Are you getting at that this is an Obama/Bush/media thing? Because that's what I think it sounds like you are getting at.

You tell me. Is that what it is? I don't know.

This is pretty close to an apples to apples comparison.

What passive/aggressive BS.

 

[LongTimeListener]

YF -- in the immediate aftermath of Abu Ghraib and continuing to this day, there has been a debate about whether anything there was torture or was wrong in amy way. The pro-administration officials and media outlets took a notable "what's the big deal?" attitude that propelled the entire situation as a matter of being discussion worthy. Here we have some rogue soldiers who are universally viewed as contemptible. There is no "other side" of that discussion.

 

[Dick Whitman]

YF -- in the immediate aftermath of Abu Ghraib and continuing to this day, there has been a debate about whether anything there was torture or was wrong in amy way. The pro-administration officials and media outlets took a notable "what's the big deal?" attitude that propelled the entire situation as a matter of being discussion worthy. Here we have some rogue soldiers who are universally viewed as contemptible. There is no "other side" of that discussion.

Which media outlet?

 

[Inky_Wretch]

YF -- in the immediate aftermath of Abu Ghraib and continuing to this day, there has been a debate about whether anything there was torture or was wrong in amy way. The pro-administration officials and media outlets took a notable "what's the big deal?" attitude that propelled the entire situation as a matter of being discussion worthy. Here we have some rogue soldiers who are universally viewed as contemptible. There is no "other side" of that discussion.

Which media outlet?

The coverage of Abu Ghraib didn't ramp up for several months. It took 60 Minutes II showing the photos to get most media outlets to pay attention to it.

In November, the Associated Press was among the first to raise alarms about abuse at Abu Ghraib – but few of the AP's clients showcased the story, if they ran it at all.

Then, on January 16 of this year (2004), the U.S. Command in Baghdad issued a one-paragraph press release: "An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility. The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation, which is in its early stages. The investigation will be conducted in a thorough and professional manner."

The tantalizing but sketchy release didn't exactly set off a media firestorm. The New York Times published a 367-word report on page 7, noting that the inquiry was expected to "add fuel" to the burgeoning allegations of abuse. The Philadelphia Inquirer ran a 707-word story, also played on page 7, headlined, "U.S. probes report of abuse of Iraqi detainees." The Washington Post and USA Today did not run stories on the release, according to a Lexis-Nexis search. The Boston Globe had about 100 words on the investigation at the end of an 844-word Iraq story on A4. The Dallas Morning News ran a 20-word brief on 26A. Television largely ignored the announcement: CNN and Fox News Channel mentioned it briefly on January 16, NBC had a 41-word item the following morning, and that was about it.

Then the story largely disappeared. Few followed the misty clue.

Three-and-a-half months later, the degradation at Abu Ghraib finally became major international news after CBS' "60 Minutes II" on April 28 aired ghastly photographs of U.S. military police posing and grinning next to naked, hooded Iraqi prisoners. Two days later, The New Yorker posted Seymour M. Hersh's scorching account of prisoner mistreatment at the prison.

http://www.ajr.org/article.asp?id=3716

 

[LongTimeListener]

I trace the start of Abu Ghraib as a "story" to the release of the photos by CBS, which is also the frenzy YF is talking about. But yeah, the Kill Team story could percolate and become much bigger, I guess. I don't believe it will, for the fatigue reason others have stated and also because as I noted earlier, there's really no other side of the debate on this one.

 

[poindexter]

Are you getting at that this is an Obama/Bush/media thing? Because that's what I think it sounds like you are getting at.

You tell me. Is that what it is? I don't know.

This is pretty close to an apples to apples comparison.

I don't play the red/blue/media game, so I don't give a ****. But its pretty clear that's what you are getting at.

 

[Mark McGwire]

If things that are not alike are exactly alike, then everything I know to be false can be true, and I will win.

I don't know. You tell me.

 

[Azrael]

"Much worse."*


*Donald Rumsfeld on all bad things everywhere, when considered in opposition to those bad things directly involving Donald Rumsfeld, like say those bad things for which Donald Rumsfeld gave a direct order and for which Donald Rumsfeld might one day be held responsible.

 

[Mark McGwire]

"Much worse."*


*Donald Rumsfeld on all bad things everywhere, when considered in opposition to those bad things directly involving Donald Rumsfeld, like say those bad things for which Donald Rumsfeld gave a direct order and for which Donald Rumsfeld might one day be held responsible.

Reuters:

Washington - Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other senior U.S. officials share much of the blame for detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to portions of a report released on Thursday by the Senate Armed Services Committee.
The report's executive summary, made public by the committee's Democratic chairman Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan and its top Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, said Rumsfeld contributed to the abuse by authorizing aggressive interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay on December 2, 2002.
He rescinded the authorization six weeks later. But the report said word of his approval continued to spread within U.S. military circles and encouraged the use of harsh techniques as far away as Iraq and Afghanistan.
The report concluded that Rumsfeld's actions were "a direct cause of detainee abuse" at Guantanamo and "influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques ... in Afghanistan and Iraq."

 

[Stoney]

This thread was derailed from the beginning by the dumb agenda-driven way the topic was introduced through the Rumsfeld quote and Abu Ghraib comparison.

But, setting aside the political bull****, I'm a tad surprised at the lack of comments on the Kill Team story itself. I found that RS article to be a fairly shocking read.

 

[YankeeFan]

The coverage of Abu Ghraib didn't ramp up for several months. It took 60 Minutes II showing the photos to get most media outlets to pay attention to it.

I trace the start of Abu Ghraib as a "story" to the release of the photos by CBS, which is also the frenzy YF is talking about.

And, isn't that part of the point? As Dan pointed out, NPR reported on this back in September. And, Azrael is right that Morlock's sentencing received media attention.

But did anyone publish the photos until Der Spiegel did last week?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752310,00.html

And, when they did, did anyone pick up on it? It sure didn't cause the frenzy that the publication of the Abu Ghraib pictures did.

This thread was derailed from the beginning by the dumb agenda-driven way the topic was introduced through the Rumsfeld quote and Abu Ghraib comparison.

The article I linked to was an interview with Rumsfeld and specifically dealt with the comparison to Abu Ghraib. That's why the topic was introduced in the way it was.

And, it's comments like his that may drive the story into the limelight, so that's why it's relevant.

 

[YankeeFan]

If things that are not alike are exactly alike, then everything I know to be false can be true, and I will win.

I don't know. You tell me.

Ah, "Mark McGwire's" tired schtick. More of your usual meme that anyone who you disagree with is using faulty logic, therefor you don't have to engage, defend, or debate.

What a great way to constantly avoid uncomfortable discussions. It's pure brilliance.

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other senior U.S. officials share much of the blame for detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to portions of a report released on Thursday by the Senate Armed Services Committee.

And, lacking an investigation by the Senate Armed Services Committee, such finding would not have been made.

So, I'm sure you support an investigation in this matter as well.

 

[MonsterLobster]

It's partly that we've been desensitized to it. There's a lot of war porn our there now.

Exactly. I think America is at a point where it's just absolutely burned out on this sort of thing. I'm too young to know, but didn't this happen with Vietnam, too? Weren't people just staring through their televisions after a while?

 

[wicked]

FWIW, from a former Green Beret who was an embed with 5/2.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bull****-on-rolling-stone.htm

 

[Mark McGwire]

If things that are not alike are exactly alike, then everything I know to be false can be true, and I will win.

I don't know. You tell me.

Ah, "Mark McGwire's" tired schtick. More of your usual meme that anyone who you disagree with is using faulty logic, therefor you don't have to engage, defend, or debate.

What a great way to constantly avoid uncomfortable discussions. It's pure brilliance.

Former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other senior U.S. officials share much of the blame for detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, according to portions of a report released on Thursday by the Senate Armed Services Committee.

And, lacking an investigation by the Senate Armed Services Committee, such finding would not have been made.

So, I'm sure you support an investigation in this matter as well.

It's not my fault your logic sucks so bad, or that you've got beaten up for it so badly on this thread.

But, so you know: This story came to light as a result of an Army investigation. And, no, just because one investigation into one thing is a good thing does not mean a person must support investigations into any other thing. Your logical fallacy here is false equivalence, and you can look it up on the internet to avoid it in the future. Or you can go fix me a cup of coffee and do something useful.

Either way, you're likely to be out of your depth.

I honestly don't know what is sadder. That you think considering logic is a way to avoid debate or that in your post expressing such a stupid idea, you used a categorized logical fallacy.

 

[YankeeFan]

Or you can go fix me a cup of coffee and do something useful.

Keep trying to make it personal, "Mark". Thing is, that doesn't get under my skin.

I'm quite proud of my career, unlike yourself.

Either way, you're likely to be out of your depth.

I honestly don't know what is sadder. That you think considering logic is a way to avoid debate or that in your post expressing such a stupid idea, you used a categorized logical fallacy.

Wasn't this Zeke's meme before you stole it?

Bash the logic all you want. Respond to Rumsfeld, not me, then.

What are your thoughts on this episode?

As for being out of my depth, are you still supporting Mubarak?

 

[Stoney]

FWIW, from a former Green Beret who was an embed with 5/2.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/calling-bull****-on-rolling-stone.htm

That's a rather weak rebuttal.

He says he's calling bull****, but he doesn't actually refute or disprove anything said in the Rolling Stone piece and "I didn't see anything myself" is hardly a credible unbiased argument. And a couple of his assertions, such that those with knowledge "would fit in a minivan" are supported by no facts and refuted by evidence in the RS piece indicating that a helluva lot more people knew about it than that.

He does make one valid point about the "motorcycle kill" video being included in a link alongside the illegal kill photos, that was misleading and perhaps unfair. But he pokes no holes in the article itself.

 

[Mark McGwire]

I think no one was buying this weak-ass ****, anyway, but I enjoy piling on, because I enjoy feeling much smarter than you.

 

[YankeeFan]

I think no one was buying this weak-ass ****, anyway, but I enjoy piling on, because I enjoy feeling much smarter than you.

I sure you "feel" smarter than me. And to a liberal, "feelings" are what really matters.

It's a shame that you're wrong.

 

[Mark McGwire]

Not at all. Also, you have misused the term "meme" when you meant "turn of phrase," or "figure of speech." I'm here to help.