Over vs. More than

[zeke12]

Beach Bum, I'd suggest hiring some better writers if you're seriously worried about fact errors.

The desk absolutely has to change over to more than and may to might and a whole slew of other ****.

It's our job.

 

[wickedwritah]

Had never heard may vs. might before, Zeke. Fill me in.

 

[friend of a friend]

Beach Bum, I'd suggest hiring some better writers if you're seriously worried about fact errors.

The desk absolutely has to change over to more than and may to might and a whole slew of other ****.

It's our job.

Since his main concern is to make sure they don't get sued, hiring some new writers may might be the best idea.

 

[Tom Petty]

Had never heard may vs. might before, Zeke. Fill me in.

he might.

 

[playthrough]

Gimme LSU -3.5 and more than 47 tonight.

Ka-ching.

 

[zeke12]

People use may incorrectly all the time. It implies permission.

So, in an obit, this is OK: "Friends may call from 1:30 to 3 p.m. at the chapel."

Not OK: "This may be the best East Bum**** team in 20 years." They might. But they don't need your permission.

Drives me crazy.

 

[captzulu]

For the arguments against the arguments that readers don't care about "over vs. more than", here's the thing: Look in a dictionary, and one of the definitions for "over" is "more than" (in Webster's dictionary). So for readers -- people who don't live by the AP style guide -- those two words ARE correctly interchangeable when you're talking about quantity, so why would they care which one appears in the paper? I still always change it to "more than", but you also have to take into account that readers won't perceive the use of "over" as being as bad as a typo or a grammatical mistake. The world doesn't run on the AP style guide, after all.

 

[Matt1735]

The world doesn't run on the AP style guide, after all.

But our world does! We have rules in order to have consistency and clarity in what we do. The AP stylebook is our rulebook. We should not deviate from the rules just because the dictionary says we can.

 

[Tom Petty]

For the arguments against the arguments that readers don't care about "over vs. more than", here's the thing: Look in a dictionary, and one of the definitions for "over" is "more than" (in Webster's dictionary). So for readers -- people who don't live by the AP style guide -- those two words ARE correctly interchangeable when you're talking about quantity, so why would they care which one appears in the paper? I still always change it to "more than", but you also have to take into account that readers won't perceive the use of "over" as being as bad as a typo or a grammatical mistake. The world doesn't run on the AP style guide, after all.

i think we should hold ourselves to only getting the facts correct only most the time. readers don't care. really, they don't.

 

[friend of a friend]

For the arguments against the arguments that readers don't care about "over vs. more than", here's the thing: Look in a dictionary, and one of the definitions for "over" is "more than" (in Webster's dictionary). So for readers -- people who don't live by the AP style guide -- those two words ARE correctly interchangeable when you're talking about quantity, so why would they care which one appears in the paper? I still always change it to "more than", but you also have to take into account that readers won't perceive the use of "over" as being as bad as a typo or a grammatical mistake. The world doesn't run on the AP style guide, after all.

i think we should hold ourselves to only getting the facts correct only most the time. readers don't care. really, they don't.

Unless you're talking about the Web site. Then we just care about getting up quick. Who cares if it's wrong?

 

[Tom Petty]

For the arguments against the arguments that readers don't care about "over vs. more than", here's the thing: Look in a dictionary, and one of the definitions for "over" is "more than" (in Webster's dictionary). So for readers -- people who don't live by the AP style guide -- those two words ARE correctly interchangeable when you're talking about quantity, so why would they care which one appears in the paper? I still always change it to "more than", but you also have to take into account that readers won't perceive the use of "over" as being as bad as a typo or a grammatical mistake. The world doesn't run on the AP style guide, after all.

i think we should hold ourselves to only getting the facts correct only most the time. readers don't care. really, they don't.

Unless you're talking about the Web site. Then we just care about getting up quick. Who cares if it's wrong?

not that one guy or captzulu.

 

[captzulu]

Sigh. How does one come to equate not stressing out too much about an AP-only style point with not caring about getting facts correct? That's like saying I don't care if I hit a pedestrian because I don't stress if I accidentally stepped on an ant. To me, the "over vs. more than" thing is the equivalent of not using a comma in front of "and" in a series. The AP rule says don't use a comma, while basically all other styles of writing says use one. You want facts? I gave you one in my original post: The use of "over" and "more than" is considered interchangeable by the official reference book that most of the world uses (a dictionary). The rest of the world doesn't operate on journalists' rules. Deal with it. Add the common-sense logic that says no one would mistake what is meant by "over 200 people showed up", and the consequences of missing one instance of "over" is miniscule.

AP has its own style rule about it? No problem. And if you read my original post, I said that I still change "over" to "more than" when AP style applies, but my head doesn't go spinning if I see that I missed one or I see "over 500" in nonjournalists' writing. As long as the meaning is clear, you think readers would stop and ask, "Why did they use 'over' instead of 'more than'?" They're much more likely to ask, "Why don't they use commas in front of 'and'? Isn't that something you learn to do in fifth grade?" And while readers care about factual errors, who has taken a call complaining about the use of "over"?

And since you got me on a roll, let me make this point, too: Yes, the AP style guide is designed to provide clarity, and much of it does help do that, but it is also meant to be applied with some common sense. I've seen some who only edit with the goal of making sure everything fits an AP rule, without considering the intent behind the rule. The end result often ends up being more confusing and difficult to read than if you just bent a minor rule. The end goal of editing is to make a piece more readable and easier to understand, not to make it conform perfectly to the AP styleguide or any other stylebook that's written as a set of general rules that would fit the most common situations but certainly not meant to fit every single specific circumstance. A styleguide is a means to an end, not the end itself.

 

[CentralIllinoisan]

Yes, but readers notice a mispelled word.

Only anal-retentive, ex-grammar teachers or copy editors pay attention to "over" and "more than" or all the other little word-choice debates we've been having since the first time ink went to paper. Readers DO NOT CARE.

But in the time it took a copy editor to change it eight places in the paper, said copy editor may have screwed up a headline or missed seeing a fact error. It's a big waste of time to sweat this when we have fewer people to check and less time in which to do it.

You're more than an idiot.

 

[Beach_Bum]

When the managing editor sends out that memo chastising the staff for the increase in corrections and decrease in deadline efficiency resulting from the new 9:45 first-edition deadline while operating with two less copy editors because of buyouts or departures, I will be sure to use the "but we changed all the overs to more than" defense. A hint to you see-no-shade-of-gray-guys: They won't be saying great job. They will be saying get new copy editors.

I never said I "liked" letting this slide or that it is a common practice to do so. I said it doesn't bother me like it once did. Big difference. I expect copy editors to change it WHEN THEY HAVE TIME. But the directives laid down from the top are 1) make deadline; 2) use due dilligence in checking facts and; 3) write accurate and descriptive headlines as their top priorities. There are times those three missions are not compatible with going through 9 prep files at 9:15 and changing every over to more than and every win to victory.

At an earlier time in my career I would have been extremely upset by these minor things. I used to describe them as little flaws that collectively cause people to put the paper down. I would have obsessed over them to the point of ignoring all the good things about a section due to the cringe induced by the use of win as a noun.

I say fix it if you can, of course, but not at the expense of things that are of more importance in quality control. Readers understand what is meant by most of these phrases. So at some point in the night, fixing them can become counterproductive to 1, 2 and 3 and becomes a task better suited by coaching at the assignment-editor stage during the day -- to get the writers not to write it that way in the first place.

 

[Bruce Leroy]

When the managing editor sends out that memo chastising the staff for the increase in corrections and decrease in deadline efficiency resulting from the new 9:45 first-edition deadline while operating with two less copy editors because of buyouts or departures, I will be sure to use the "but we changed all the overs to more than" defense. A hint to you see-no-shade-of-gray-guys: They won't be saying great job. They will be saying get new copy editors.

I never said I "liked" letting this slide or that it is a common practice to do so. I said it doesn't bother me like it once did. Big difference. I expect copy editors to change it WHEN THEY HAVE TIME. But the directives laid down from the top are 1) make deadline; 2) use due dilligence in checking facts and; 3) write accurate and descriptive headlines as their top priorities. There are times those three missions are not compatible with going through 9 prep files at 9:15 and changing every over to more than and every win to victory.

At an earlier time in my career I would have been extremely upset by these minor things. I used to describe them as little flaws that collectively cause people to put the paper down. I would have obsessed over them to the point of ignoring all the good things about a section due to the cringe induced by the use of win as a noun.

I say fix it if you can, of course, but not at the expense of things that are of more importance in quality control. At some point in the night, fixing them can become counterproductive to 1, 2 and 3 and becomes a task better suited by coaching at the assignment-editor stage during the day.

Because of

 

[Nathan Scott Phillips]

All style guides, AP included, have some elements that are a matter of opinion. Everything's in there for a reason, but there are plenty of things in the AP book where an intelligent, reasonable person could have an opposite opinion. In that case, I say, ignore the book and make the decision that best serves the reader and the story. And hire copy editors who can make those decisions, not robots.

 

[friend of a friend]

When the managing editor sends out that memo chastising the staff for the increase in corrections and decrease in deadline efficiency resulting from the new 9:45 first-edition deadline while operating with two less copy editors because of buyouts or departures, I will be sure to use the "but we changed all the overs to more than" defense. A hint to you see-no-shade-of-gray-guys: They won't be saying great job. They will be saying get new copy editors.

I never said I "liked" letting this slide or that it is a common practice to do so. I said it doesn't bother me like it once did. Big difference. I expect copy editors to change it WHEN THEY HAVE TIME. But the directives laid down from the top are 1) make deadline; 2) use due dilligence in checking facts and; 3) write accurate and descriptive headlines as their top priorities. There are times those three missions are not compatible with going through 9 prep files at 9:15 and changing every over to more than and every win to victory.

At an earlier time in my career I would have been extremely upset by these minor things. I used to describe them as little flaws that collectively cause people to put the paper down. I would have obsessed over them to the point of ignoring all the good things about a section due to the cringe induced by the use of win as a noun.

I say fix it if you can, of course, but not at the expense of things that are of more importance in quality control. Readers understand what is meant by most of these phrases. So at some point in the night, fixing them can become counterproductive to 1, 2 and 3 and becomes a task better suited by coaching at the assignment-editor stage during the day -- to get the writers not to write it that way in the first place.

Jumpin' Jeebus. It takes two seconds to change over to more than. If your writers are using it incorrectly 12 times in every story, than once again, you have a bigger problem.

 

[FreddiePatek]

When the managing editor sends out that memo chastising the staff for the increase in corrections and decrease in deadline efficiency resulting from the new 9:45 first-edition deadline while operating with two less copy editors because of buyouts or departures, I will be sure to use the "but we changed all the overs to more than" defense. A hint to you see-no-shade-of-gray-guys: They won't be saying great job. They will be saying get new copy editors.

I never said I "liked" letting this slide or that it is a common practice to do so. I said it doesn't bother me like it once did. Big difference. I expect copy editors to change it WHEN THEY HAVE TIME. But the directives laid down from the top are 1) make deadline; 2) use due dilligence in checking facts and; 3) write accurate and descriptive headlines as their top priorities. There are times those three missions are not compatible with going through 9 prep files at 9:15 and changing every over to more than and every win to victory.

At an earlier time in my career I would have been extremely upset by these minor things. I used to describe them as little flaws that collectively cause people to put the paper down. I would have obsessed over them to the point of ignoring all the good things about a section due to the cringe induced by the use of win as a noun.

I say fix it if you can, of course, but not at the expense of things that are of more importance in quality control. At some point in the night, fixing them can become counterproductive to 1, 2 and 3 and becomes a task better suited by coaching at the assignment-editor stage during the day.

Because of

because of

 

[Tom Petty]

i really weep for you guys who don't have the time or desire to do a good job. i really do. my heart bleeds for both your ignorance and lack of pride. being stupid and/or lazy probably isn't your fault. you either were born with a low IQ and/or weren't taught a work ethic when growing up.

at the same time, please, do us all a favor and get the **** out of a business that you bastardize each and every pathetic day of your lives. think of others and make it stop now.

in all sincerity, really, tomas

 

[captzulu]

i really weep for you guys who don't have the time or desire to do a good job. i really do. my heart bleeds for both your ignorance and lack of pride. being stupid and/or lazy probably isn't your fault. you either were born with a low IQ and/or weren't taught a work ethic when growing up.

at the same time, please, do us all a favor and get the **** out of a business that you bastardize each and every pathetic day of your lives. think of others and make it stop now.

in all sincerity, really, tomas

Tell me this is a joke, please. How the heck does anyone seriously draw this conclusion from a discussion about "over" vs. "more than"?!