new security measures by TSA

[Double J]

A little over $500, round trip. Would have cost about $1,200 to go from and return to Toronto.

Even factoring in the exchange, $500 was still a hell of a bargain.

 

[Cosmo]

Good points, Vols and deskslave. I just have no tolerance for anyone pulling shenanigans on a flight...between this guy and the shoe bomber and the people plotting death and destruction over in London back when. Isolated incidents, I know. But I'd rather err on the side of caution, that's all.

Err on the side of caution, and paint 'the rest of the world' with a nice broad brush. I know it's easier to pretend like the problems are all someone else's fault, but I'm not sure why the rest of the world should have to suffer disproportionate annoyance, not to mention be blamed for the U.S.'s problems, all because the U.S. DHS can't get its act together. (And gee, if I were a terrorist and wanted to cause problems, what might I do now? Focus my energies on domestic flights? Nahhhh ... too easy.)

There have been terror cells busted in the U.S., too. It's not just a London thing. Or an Amsterdam thing.

ETA: FH, the story I read indicated he was on a watch list, but not a no-fly list. Not sure how they're not the same thing, but there you go.

Much of 'the rest of the world' holds a serious disdain for America. I realize I'm coming off sounding like a xenophobe, but that's not really the case.

 

[deskslave]

Good points, Vols and deskslave. I just have no tolerance for anyone pulling shenanigans on a flight...between this guy and the shoe bomber and the people plotting death and destruction over in London back when. Isolated incidents, I know. But I'd rather err on the side of caution, that's all.

Err on the side of caution, and paint 'the rest of the world' with a nice broad brush. I know it's easier to pretend like the problems are all someone else's fault, but I'm not sure why the rest of the world should have to suffer disproportionate annoyance, not to mention be blamed for the U.S.'s problems, all because the U.S. DHS can't get its act together. (And gee, if I were a terrorist and wanted to cause problems, what might I do now? Focus my energies on domestic flights? Nahhhh ... too easy.)

There have been terror cells busted in the U.S., too. It's not just a London thing. Or an Amsterdam thing.

ETA: FH, the story I read indicated he was on a watch list, but not a no-fly list. Not sure how they're not the same thing, but there you go.

Much of 'the rest of the world' holds a serious disdain for America. I realize I'm coming off sounding like a xenophobe, but that's not really the case.

'Much of the rest of the world holds a serious disdain for America, but I'm not a xenophobe.'

OK, sure. Oh, and terrorists don't hate anyone else in the world. Just Americans. No one else.

Define 'most of the rest of the world,' by the way. Because I'm guessing most folks in, say, Britain don't have a murderous dislike of America. Now, granted, a lot of folks don't much care for Americans anymore, but that's no one's fault but America's.

You want safer flights? Then someone's gonna have to step up and accept that paying TSA agents serf wages may not be the best plan. That would be a far more effective strategy than just screaming 'FURRINERS!' and running for the hills.

 

[Cosmo]

I'm not sure why you're being so combative here, man. Most of the rest of the world -- Europeans don't hold us in the highest regard, for the most part. People in predominantly Muslim nations cheered in the streets when the Twin Towers came down.

Personally, I've never felt unsafe on an airplane. I think the TSA does a fine job, but you're right, they could be paid better. I can deal with the inconveniences that go along with plane travel as long as a trade off for safety. And really, that's all I was saying to begin with. No, I don't sit on a plane and look at a Muslim and go "TERRORIST!!" I'll ask this, though. When's the last time an American national has been caught up in one of these security fiascos?

 

[deskslave]

I'm not sure why you're being so combative here, man. Most of the rest of the world -- Europeans don't hold us in the highest regard, for the most part. People in predominantly Muslim nations cheered in the streets when the Twin Towers came down.

Personally, I've never felt unsafe on an airplane. I think the TSA does a fine job, but you're right, they could be paid better. I can deal with the inconveniences that go along with plane travel as long as a trade off for safety. And really, that's all I was saying to begin with. No, I don't sit on a plane and look at a Muslim and go "TERRORIST!!" I'll ask this, though. When's the last time an American national has been caught up in one of these security fiascos?

Why am I being combative? Because you're saying 'Europeans don't hold us in the highest regard' as part of your defense for increased security standards on international flights, thereby making an awfully strong implication that you're afraid the average Belgian might try to blow up an international flight.

Most of the rest of the world is not, in fact, out to get you. Most of the rest of the world would, however, appreciate not having a skeptical eye cast upon it every time something bad happens.

Oh, by the way, the passenger being lauded as a hero? A Dutchman. Guess that's one who's on 'your side.'

 

[DisembodiedOwlHead]

I can deal with the inconveniences that go along with plane travel as long as a trade off for safety.

There's no evidence that any of the silly security measures since 9/11 (taking off shoes, limiting liquids to some certain ounce requirement, no water bottles, this new stuff) has provided additional safety. It's a bunch of reactionary noise & hassle to give the appearance of security instead of anticipating actual threats.

 

[Cosmo]

No, you're putting words in my mouth now. I don't think the average Belgian or Dane or Austrian is out to get us. I probably spoke a little knee-jerk at first, but you're making one hell of a leap to go from my original post to me saying "the whole world is out to get us."

I'd rather be safe than sorry. That's all I'm saying. If I'm inconvenienced with more security regulations, so be it. If the trade-off is making sure that one ****ing wacko with an agenda doesn't get on the flight, inconvenience me. I don't care.

 

[Point of Order]

Hey Cosmo, explain how any of these new procedures who have stopped "idiots like the one from Nigeria" (btw, there's only been 1 of these idiots out of millions of passengers in at least 5 years) from doing what he did?

I'm disappointed to see that lock-the-barn-door, knee-jerk reactions are still alive in post-Bush America.

Explain? Let's see.

- No blankets: The guy covered himself with a blanket as he lit his explosives on fire.

- Remain in seats: The guy went to the pisser, presumably to prepare his incendiary device.

- No access to carry ons: Kinda self-explanatory. Don't want some terrorist going to his bad for his explosives.

- etc., etc.

Just read the allegations.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/nigerian_man_charged.php#more

 

[buckweaver]

No, you're putting words in my mouth now. I don't think the average Belgian or Dane or Austrian is out to get us. I probably spoke a little knee-jerk at first, but you're making one hell of a leap to go from my original post to me saying "the whole world is out to get us."

Well, you did say this:

The rest of the world can't be trusted because they've proven time and again that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I think the many parts of the world that have NOT "proven time and again that they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt" -- such as, oh, where deskslave happens to be living -- have the right to be offended by such an inaccurate broad-brush statement.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

I'm going to guess this guy is not affiliated with Al-Qaeda, didn't possess enough of whatever he had to do anything other than burn himself up, and when this is all confirmed we can point at him and say, "Liar, liar, pants on fire."

 

[Cosmo]

I'll admit that particular statement was a little harsh, and probably over the top. But I was in a foul mood upon hearing about this particular round of shenanigans this morning. Moving on ...

 

[deskslave]

Hey Cosmo, explain how any of these new procedures who have stopped "idiots like the one from Nigeria" (btw, there's only been 1 of these idiots out of millions of passengers in at least 5 years) from doing what he did?

I'm disappointed to see that lock-the-barn-door, knee-jerk reactions are still alive in post-Bush America.

Explain? Let's see.

- No blankets: The guy covered himself with a blanket as he lit his explosives on fire.

- Remain in seats: The guy went to the pisser, presumably to prepare his incendiary device.

- No access to carry ons: Kinda self-explanatory. Don't want some terrorist going to his bad for his explosives.

- etc., etc.

Just read the allegations.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/nigerian_man_charged.php#more

He can still do any of those things an hour and 2 minutes before the flight is due to land.

How does this make anyone any safer? What is the actual benefit? Not the touchy-feely kind of safety. The actual, tangible, measurable benefit?

Unless you want people to travel on airplanes in wire cages, you have to accept some degree of danger. It's an infinitesimal degree of danger, and these additional measures make it ever so slightly more so. But the only way it's going to be absolutely fool-proof is if no one's ever allowed to get up, or have a carry-on bag, or go to the toilet. And that just comes up ever so slightly short in the feasibility department.

And what, pray tell, was setting off what appears to have been a firecracker going to accomplish on that plane? In the current climate especially, there was never any chance that he was going to accomplish anything.

 

[Iron_chet]

Get ready for these measures to be applied to US domestic flights in the next 12 hours, flying within the US will suck every bit as bad as flying to the US from outside the borders.

The TSA can't gear up the extra manpower fast enough, delays will be inevitable as everyone gets patted down at the gate.

 

[trifectarich]

Well, anyone who's done any amount of flying since 911 has long since realized that U.S. air security is largely a joke. It's a national embarrassment, of course, that we never seem to take these things seriously unless someone comes close to bringing down a plane (or, in the case of 911, much worse). The new procedures won't make anyone any safer.

 

[Hoo]

Get ready for these measures to be applied to US domestic flights in the next 12 hours, flying within the US will suck every bit as bad as flying to the US from outside the borders.

The TSA can't gear up the extra manpower fast enough, delays will be inevitable as everyone gets patted down at the gate.

Damn straight. There's no way this stays limited to international flights. Frankly, why should it? If you buy their simplistic logic for international flights, why stop there?

And as others have noted, why the hell are we always fighting the last battle? This Nigerian goes for his ankle-bomb at the 1-hour mark so now that's the magic hour we need to lock down by any means necessary? Use your brains, morons, and come up with some intelligent guidelines and regulations are aren't just reactionary bull**** based on the last plot.

"Better safe than sorry"? Geez, let's just go right to the wire cages and the full-on police state. There's no way to live in an open, free society without being vulnerable. And the danger remains infinitesimally small.

 

[Dyno]

According to CNN, a "disruptive passenger" is causing some kind of problem on the same AMS-DTW Northwest flight today. The plane's being held in a remote area of DTW. Great.

ETA: the crew requested emergency assistance upon landing. All passengers (except presumably, the disruptive guy) have been allowed to get off the plane.

 

[2muchcoffeeman]

According to CNN, a "disruptive passenger" is causing some kind of problem on the same AMS-DTW Northwest flight today. The plane's being held in a remote area of DTW. Great.

Locked himself in the bathroom of the plane. Also Nigerian, says AP's twitter.

 

[playthrough]

What ever happened to air marshals? I remember after 9/11 there was a big push to get marshals on every plane and people around the country were signing up to do it.

They can have every regulation in the book for being in your seat an hour before landing, nothing on your lap, only pissing in your pants allowed, etc., but why not just put one really badass military-trained 6-foot-5, 280-pound mofo in every plane watching our every move?

 

[Dyno]

What ever happened to air marshals? I remember after 9/11 there was a big push to get marshals on every plane and people around the country were signing up to do it.

They can have every regulation in the book for being in your seat an hour before landing, nothing on your lap, only pissing in your pants allowed, etc., but why not just put one really badass military-trained 6-foot-5, 280-pound mofo in every plane watching our every move?

According to Homeland Security's Janet Napolitano in an interview on CNN this morning, they only put marshals on a random assortment of flights.

 

[Kato]

Hey Cosmo, explain how any of these new procedures who have stopped "idiots like the one from Nigeria" (btw, there's only been 1 of these idiots out of millions of passengers in at least 5 years) from doing what he did?

I'm disappointed to see that lock-the-barn-door, knee-jerk reactions are still alive in post-Bush America.

Explain? Let's see.

- No blankets: The guy covered himself with a blanket as he lit his explosives on fire.

- Remain in seats: The guy went to the pisser, presumably to prepare his incendiary device.

- No access to carry ons: Kinda self-explanatory. Don't want some terrorist going to his bad for his explosives.

- etc., etc.

Just read the allegations.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/12/nigerian_man_charged.php#more

But all of the regulations are implemented after the fact. We're reacting instead of thinking ahead. Guy turns his shoe into a bomb, now everybody's shoes come off. Somebody has an explosive gel, now your toothpaste gets confiscated. Someone works on a device under a blanket in the last hour of a flight, now take off your blanket an hour early. When are people going to start thinking outside the box here?