Is it possible that Dale Jr. just isn't an elite NASCAR driver?

[Bamadog]

I think Kurt Busch, who got bounced from Hendrick so Dale Jr. could have a ride, is more of an elite driver. I think Kyle Busch wins a title in the next few years. I don't see the same focus with Earnhardt. I think he's got more pure driving talent than anyone, except maybe Jimmie and Smoke.

Eventually, Jimmie's career will slow down like Jeff's did. But if I'm Jeff Gordon, is it worth it nearly killing yourself for wins every Sunday when you go home to a Belgian supermodel? Nah. He won't win another Cup.

This thread really needs a list. Here's my elite driver list and the best of the rest. There's probably some folks I'm forgetting, but I think the elite list is about right.
Elite drivers

• 1. Jimmie Johnson
• 2. Kyle Busch
• 3. Tony Stewart
• 4. Jeff Gordon
• 5. Kurt Busch
• 6. Matt Kenseth

The really good

• 1. Carl Edwards
• 2. Ryan Newman
• 3. Denny Hamlin
• 4. Kasey Kahne
• 5. Jeff Burton
• 6. Dale Earnhardt. Jr.
• 7. Kevin Harvick

Dale is to me just a marginal talent getting by his father's good name. He's got talent. But not Cup-winning talent. His two years in Hendrick machinery have proven that. As I've said before, he has no excuses for his mid-pack performance in front-of-the-pack equipment.

 

[imjustagirl]

I think Kurt Busch, who got bounced from Hendrick so Dale Jr. could have a ride, is more of an elite driver. I think Kyle Busch wins a title in the next few years. I don't see the same focus with Earnhardt. I think he's got more pure driving talent than anyone, except maybe Jimmie and Smoke.

Assuming your first Busch was a typo?

 

[Moderator1]

bamadog, that list is really good and similar to what I'd come up with, but I'd sure as hell sub in Mark Martin for Denny Hamlin.
Martin's won a lot of races over a lot of years and is about as well respected as a clean driver as there is out there.
I don't know that I'd order mine the same way. I think Stewart and Gordon are the two best. Johnson is terrific and elevated to an even higher level by being part of what is clearly the best team. As someone said earlier, Knaus is pretty ****ing good at calling a race. That team really has its **** together.
Don't know enough about Kahne but I've never been that high on him.
Biffle deserves some serious consideration for at least your second list. Dude is pretty good.

 

[podunk press]

No question in my mind that Carl Edwards is an elite driver.

A bit overrated because of the backflips, but he's a good one.

I think Kyle Busch, Tony Stewart and Jimmie Johnson are in a league of their own with guys like Gordon, Kenseth, Biffle, Martin and Edwards just behind them.

 

[sportschick]

Having been less than five feet from both ex-Mrs. Gordon and the new Mrs. Gordon, there is no doubt who is prettier. And the prettier one seems to make him much happier, too.

I remain insanely jealous of the current Mrs. Gordon. :D

 

[Bamadog]

I think Kurt Busch, who got bounced from Hendrick so Dale Jr. could have a ride, is more of an elite driver. I think Kyle Busch wins a title in the next few years. I don't see the same focus with Earnhardt. I think he's got more pure driving talent than anyone, except maybe Jimmie and Smoke.

Assuming your first Busch was a typo?

I meant Kyle. Those whacky Busch brothers. I've always got to copy-edit any cutline with them carefully so I don't make the same mistake.

And yes, I think Greg Biffle has done enough to merit a place on "the really good" list with the rest of those folks. With the way Mark Martin has run this season, he deserves to be there too. I really thought Kasey Kahne had turned a big corner in his career when he had that really good run of races, but it seems like he's sunk back to the pack. Maybe that's because of Dodge's smaller pockets these days? I think you're going to see with smaller budgets the GM and Chrysler teams struggle a little bit more in the future.

 

[lono]

I think Kurt Busch, who got bounced from Hendrick so Dale Jr. could have a ride, is more of an elite driver. I think Kyle Busch wins a title in the next few years. I don't see the same focus with Earnhardt. I think he's got more pure driving talent than anyone, except maybe Jimmie and Smoke.

Eventually, Jimmie's career will slow down like Jeff's did. But if I'm Jeff Gordon, is it worth it nearly killing yourself for wins every Sunday when you go home to a Belgian supermodel? Nah. He won't win another Cup.

This thread really needs a list. Here's my elite driver list and the best of the rest. There's probably some folks I'm forgetting, but I think the elite list is about right.
Elite drivers

• 1. Jimmie Johnson
• 2. Kyle Busch
• 3. Tony Stewart
• 4. Jeff Gordon
• 5. Kurt Busch
• 6. Matt Kenseth

The really good

• 1. Carl Edwards
• 2. Ryan Newman
• 3. Denny Hamlin
• 4. Kasey Kahne
• 5. Jeff Burton
• 6. Dale Earnhardt. Jr.
• 7. Kevin Harvick

Dale is to me just a marginal talent getting by his father's good name. He's got talent. But not Cup-winning talent. His two years in Hendrick machinery have proven that. As I've said before, he has no excuses for his mid-pack performance in front-of-the-pack equipment.

Here's how your list breaks down in terms of winning percentage and percentage of top-five finishes.

Driver Starts Wins %
Johnson 268 42 15.7%
Gordon 558 82 14.7
Ky. Busch 163 15 9.2
Stewart 369 33 8.9
Ku. Busch 305 19 6.2
Kenseth 341 18 5.3


Driver Starts T5 %
Gordon 558 253 45.3
Johnson 268 107 39.9%
Stewart 369 135 36.6
Ky. Busch 163 51 31.2
Kenseth 341 92 26.9
Ku. Busch 305 65 21.3

 

[Bamadog]

I think Kurt Busch, who got bounced from Hendrick so Dale Jr. could have a ride, is more of an elite driver. I think Kyle Busch wins a title in the next few years. I don't see the same focus with Earnhardt. I think he's got more pure driving talent than anyone, except maybe Jimmie and Smoke.

Eventually, Jimmie's career will slow down like Jeff's did. But if I'm Jeff Gordon, is it worth it nearly killing yourself for wins every Sunday when you go home to a Belgian supermodel? Nah. He won't win another Cup.

This thread really needs a list. Here's my elite driver list and the best of the rest. There's probably some folks I'm forgetting, but I think the elite list is about right.
Elite drivers

• 1. Jimmie Johnson
• 2. Kyle Busch
• 3. Tony Stewart
• 4. Jeff Gordon
• 5. Kurt Busch
• 6. Matt Kenseth

The really good

• 1. Carl Edwards
• 2. Ryan Newman
• 3. Denny Hamlin
• 4. Kasey Kahne
• 5. Jeff Burton
• 6. Dale Earnhardt. Jr.
• 7. Kevin Harvick

Dale is to me just a marginal talent getting by his father's good name. He's got talent. But not Cup-winning talent. His two years in Hendrick machinery have proven that. As I've said before, he has no excuses for his mid-pack performance in front-of-the-pack equipment.

Here's how your list breaks down in terms of winning percentage and percentage of top-five finishes.

Driver Starts Wins %
Johnson 268 42 15.7%
Gordon 558 82 14.7
Ky. Busch 163 15 9.2
Stewart 369 33 8.9
Ku. Busch 305 19 6.2
Kenseth 341 18 5.3


Driver Starts T5 %
Gordon 558 253 45.3
Johnson 268 107 39.9%
Stewart 369 135 36.6
Ky. Busch 163 51 31.2
Kenseth 341 92 26.9
Ku. Busch 305 65 21.3

Thanks for the stats. As my old man loved to say, the proof is in the pudding.

 

[hondo]

Dale Jr. is a myth kept alive by the NASCAR publicity machine and fans of his father. He's overrated and a pretender. He's nowhere near as good as his Dad, but who was? Not really Jr's fault. He's made enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life and someone needs to have the guts to call a spade a spade and tell the guy he's not worth it and cut him loose.

 

[slappy4428]

Dale Jr. is a myth kept alive by the NASCAR publicity machine and fans of his father. He's overrated and a pretender. He's nowhere near as good as his Dad, but who was? Not really Jr's fault. He's made enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life and someone needs to have the guts to call a spade a spade and tell the guy he's not worth it and cut him loose.

Let us not forget that his legend, in his formative years, was fueled by Budweiser in more ways than one.

 

[Double J]

Dale Jr. is a myth kept alive by the NASCAR publicity machine and fans of his father. He's overrated and a pretender. He's nowhere near as good as his Dad, but who was? Not really Jr's fault. He's made enough money to live comfortably the rest of his life and someone needs to have the guts to call a spade a spade and tell the guy he's not worth it and cut him loose.

But he is worth it, as far as merchandising is concerned.

As long as he's driving, the suckers will continue to prove P.T. Barnum right, over and over and over again.

 

[budcrew08]

bamadog, that list is really good and similar to what I'd come up with, but I'd sure as hell sub in Mark Martin for Denny Hamlin.
Martin's won a lot of races over a lot of years and is about as well respected as a clean driver as there is out there.
I don't know that I'd order mine the same way. I think Stewart and Gordon are the two best. Johnson is terrific and elevated to an even higher level by being part of what is clearly the best team. As someone said earlier, Knaus is pretty ****ing good at calling a race. That team really has its **** together.
Don't know enough about Kahne but I've never been that high on him.
Biffle deserves some serious consideration for at least your second list. Dude is pretty good.

Ah, but here's the question, and it's semi-related: Would JJ be as good without Chad Knaus? If he had Joe Sixpack as his crew chief, would he be as dominant?

 

[Bamadog]

bamadog, that list is really good and similar to what I'd come up with, but I'd sure as hell sub in Mark Martin for Denny Hamlin.
Martin's won a lot of races over a lot of years and is about as well respected as a clean driver as there is out there.
I don't know that I'd order mine the same way. I think Stewart and Gordon are the two best. Johnson is terrific and elevated to an even higher level by being part of what is clearly the best team. As someone said earlier, Knaus is pretty ****ing good at calling a race. That team really has its **** together.
Don't know enough about Kahne but I've never been that high on him.
Biffle deserves some serious consideration for at least your second list. Dude is pretty good.

Ah, but here's the question, and it's semi-related: Would JJ be as good without Chad Knaus? If he had Joe Sixpack as his crew chief, would he be as dominant?

You could say the same about Jeff Gordon and Ray Evernham during Jeff's dominant run. Jeff Gordon has proven to be pretty good without Evernham, but not as dominant. I think the same thing would happen if Knaus/Johnson split up.

As for Dale Jr., he'll be in that seat because he generates revenue. He's like NASCAR's Danica Patrick. All style. No substance.

 

[expendable]

A great driver with a ****-poor crew chief will still win races, and a great crew chief can get a crappy driver to victory lane every now and then. But to win cups, and dominate the way Gordon and Johnson have, both have to be elite in their respective category.

But, how about this: What would happen if Evernham and Johnson were paired together, along with Knauss and Gordon in their primes? Would they all be able to duplicate their successes?

 

[Double J]

Gordon has won 33 races with two different crew chiefs since he and Evernham split. It's not the 49 wins that they piled up in seven years together, but it's still pretty damn impressive.

 

[User 1019]

It's not a possibility that Jr. isn't an elite driver. It's reality.

 

[hondo]

It's not a possibility that Jr. isn't an elite driver. It's reality.

I always gave NASCAR fans credit for calling bull**** on pretenders. Guess that doesn't apply to Junior.

 

[Bamadog]

It's not a possibility that Jr. isn't an elite driver. It's reality.

I always gave NASCAR fans credit for calling bull**** on pretenders. Guess that doesn't apply to Junior.

It's a sentimental thing. If his name wasn't Earnhardt, it'd be mud. Just like Danica wouldn't be even an afterthought if she wasn't a very, very, very, very smoking hot woman.