Happy birthday, Nelson Mandela!

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And you don't look a day over 25 with that piece of paper in front of your face.
 
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Yes, what a great guy for God to pick out and allow to be living such a long life.

All these kooky kids who thing JBeiber or some rap star or actor or quarterback is "courageous" need to run a Googles or a Wiki on this guy.

Happy Birthday to a fantastic person.
 
Oh, please, he's no saint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Armed_anti-apartheid_activities

Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, sharply criticising those in his own party who attempted to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

I am not trying to condone apartheid, but he wasn't exactly Gandhi.
 
wicked said:
I am not trying to condone apartheid, but he wasn't exactly Gandhi.

True.

A new biography of Mohandas Gandhi has sparked outrage in India because it depicts the Mahatma as a racist and a bisexual.

Joseph Lelyveld's "Great Soul: Mahatma Gandhi and His Struggle with India" claims that the founder of modern India had a sexual relationship with Hermann Kallenbach, a German-Jewish bodybuilder and also made disparaging remarks about black Africans during his early years in South Africa.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/127772/20110328/gandhi.htm
 
wicked said:
Oh, please, he's no saint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Armed_anti-apartheid_activities

Mandela later admitted that the ANC, in its struggle against apartheid, also violated human rights, sharply criticising those in his own party who attempted to remove statements supporting this fact from the reports of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

I am not trying to condone apartheid, but he wasn't exactly Gandhi.

He wasn't Gandhi. But Gandhi was one of a kind and a rare human.

And Mandela has lived a remarkable life in his own right.

Mandela did challenge a policy that discriminated against him because of the color of his skin. He led a wing of the movement that used arms and force. So, no, he was not Gandhi. But given the discrimination and awful treatment he received, why would that be the thing people focus on today, particularly given the peaceful means he used later in life to show kindness and forgiveness and to pull that country together and out of an awful policy of racial discrimination in the best way he could?

He was thrown into prison for 27 years. And while it's easy to throw out a, "He wasn't Gandhi," comparison, what it misses for me is that when he was released from prison, he walked out a remarkable man, considering the bitterness most people would have carried with them. He gave South Africa the perfect mix of leadership qualities, forgiveness and a spirit that projected kindness and made reconciliation something that was going to happen by the force of his will.

If you want to focus on the militancy of the ANC, fine. But put it within the context of Apartheid and how Mandela and people with his skin color were treated -- which led to them arming.

What I will focus on are moments like when Chris Hani was assassinated, and Mandela gave that majestic speech that called for peace. The respect he engendered and the speech he gave, prevented a much worse violent outburst than what the country saw, and it allowed the transition from apartheid to really happen. It so easily could have been derailed at that point. Mandela might not have been Gandhi, but that speech certainly evoked the spirit of Gandhi, and after all he had been through, that, and all the other times he held that country together through the force of his personality and will, and everything he did to create a better racial harmony, is why he is such a remarkable man. After what he had been through and how he was treated? To me that is an incredible man.
 
Ragu, I admire him very much for the distance he came. And I am a fan of Mandela in general. He has done many great things since leaving prison.

But for Blitz to pretend he is without fault, as he did in his post, is silly. That's all I was trying to say.
 
wicked said:
Ragu, I admire him very much for the distance he came. And I am a fan of Mandela in general. He has done many great things since leaving prison.

But for Blitz to pretend he is without fault, as he did in his post, is silly. That's all I was trying to say.

I'm confused where Blitz said that:

Yes, what a great guy for God to pick out and allow to be living such a long life.

All these kooky kids who thing JBeiber or some rap star or actor or quarterback is "courageous" need to run a Googles or a Wiki on this guy.

Happy Birthday to a fantastic person.

Great guy. Courageous. Fantastic. Not sure how that means without fault.

And Gandhi? I feel a little like Hitchens going after Mother Teresa here, but come on. As noted above, he did a lot for Indians in South Africa. Blacks? Not so much.

Gandhi and Mandela both had flaws. No doubt. But I think it's all right to still call Mandela courageous and fantastic. I think that's all Blitz was trying to say.

And the Wiki you quoted where he admits the ANC violated rights, most of the incidents discussed were when he was in prison.

Winnie Mandela's another story. She was actually involved in those incidents.
 
wicked said:
Ragu, I admire him very much for the distance he came. And I am a fan of Mandela in general. He has done many great things since leaving prison.

But for Blitz to pretend he is without fault, as he did in his post, is silly. That's all I was trying to say.
Wicked, I don't even want to hear it.
I'm not pretending ANYONE is without fault.
But I give a free pass to any "misguided" concessions Mandela made enroute to the gains he strived to make.
My dad was a young district attorney in an adjoining Mississippi county to Neshoba, where the three Civil Rights workers were killed, buried and uncovered in 1964.
He was a fair man who didn't tow any party lines back then, but we've discussed those days back when many times. He told me once that Mickey Schwerner was an asshole with a terrible penchant for pushing the envelope and purposely getting under local law enforcement's skin.

I told my father, the mountains to climb and the hurdles to try and get over in the Deep South back then were so steep, and the deck was stacked so far in the bad guys' favor, that you practically had to be an asshole if you were ever gonna make any headway. You practically had to spit in the some of these sheriff's or policemen's faces to make a point.

Go rent a copy of Biko or do a study on the conditions in South Africa that existed for many, many years and you might wind up calling Mandela courageous.
 
wicked said:
Ragu, I admire him very much for the distance he came. And I am a fan of Mandela in general. He has done many great things since leaving prison.

But for Blitz to pretend he is without fault, as he did in his post, is silly. That's all I was trying to say.

No one is without fault. And when I look at civil rights/civil disobedience pioneers of the last century, I don't see how you don't put Mandela right there on the list with Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. None of them were perfect men, in their private or public lives. But each achieved a type of greatness that is rare. They were born into unjust socities with outright policies of racism and they seized their moments in time to do amazing, inspirational things and to bring about change with beautiful spirits and souls, through leadership they were able to demonstrate despite the hatred they had to stare down.

When you say Mandela was no Gandhi, don't forget that even though Gandhi played a role in South Africa earlier in his life, the struggle he fought for in India was independence, and the British rule over India was somewhat less insidious than apartheid was to South Africa--even if they treated the Indians poorly. Gandhi studied at the University level in England and was a lawyer. He was afforded opportunities that Nelson Mandela could have never dreamed of early in his life, even if once Gandhi got back to India, his education did little to protect him from racism that held him down.

But because Gandhi was educated, could have assimilated and lived a much better life than Mandela could have ever dreamed of, would you argue that Gandhi was no Mandela in terms of scope? It seems about the same as saying, Mandela was no Gandhi, because as a young man he advocated violent resistance -- something that seems perfectly understandable to me and is remarkable in its own way, given that 99.9 percent of the black people living under apartheid felt NO ability to resist at all because it was that suffocating.

To me, they were both remarkable men, ideological leaders who brought about just change, and rose to greatness in the face of overwhelming odds, in ways that 99.9 percent of the rest of us couldn't. They had something special.
 
He "WAS A" district attorney in that area where the events took place.
The eventual trial was a federal one, which took place three years later and NOT in Neshoba County where the killings took place.
The civil rights workers, if you remember, traveled across many county lines in their work to register blacks to vote.
 

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