Corporal punishment

[outofplace]

What seems to not make sense to me is that (with one gigantic exception) we don't have corporal punishment as an aspect of our criminal justice system. Either we don't think it works or we think that it is inappropriate.

Why is this different? Do adults have a greater claim to dignity than minors? But that could cut the other way, too - minors are vulnerable members of society who need more protection.

Thoughts on an apparent inconsistency?

You really think discipline for a child is the same thing as discipline for an adult? Seriously?

Why don't you just answer the ****ing question for once in your life instead of starting a personal pissing match?

So tired of your bull****.

Then do better.

 

[Blitz]

"Corporal punishment for school kids" is an entirely different entity than potential corporal punishment in the prison system.
We are discussing the idea of spanking school kids who insist on acting out during the school day and/or disrupting classrooms.
It is not, BTW, spanking kids who don't do homework.

That measure would be dealt with by failing the student and/or holding them back (regardless of what parents want to happen when their kids don't or can't do the required work).

 

[Dick Whitman]

What seems to not make sense to me is that (with one gigantic exception) we don't have corporal punishment as an aspect of our criminal justice system. Either we don't think it works or we think that it is inappropriate.

Why is this different? Do adults have a greater claim to dignity than minors? But that could cut the other way, too - minors are vulnerable members of society who need more protection.

Thoughts on an apparent inconsistency?

You really think discipline for a child is the same thing as discipline for an adult? Seriously?

Why don't you just answer the ****ing question for once in your life instead of starting a personal pissing match?

So tired of your bull****.

Then do better.

You probably have the lowest IQ of anyone on this board. And you think you have the highest one.

It's quite entertaining.

Do you realize that your **** adds nothing to this place? Absolutely nothing. You're dead weight here, if that. You need to reassess everything about your posting philosophy. Maybe even start anew with a new username. That would be your best bet.

 

[outofplace]

What seems to not make sense to me is that (with one gigantic exception) we don't have corporal punishment as an aspect of our criminal justice system. Either we don't think it works or we think that it is inappropriate.

Why is this different? Do adults have a greater claim to dignity than minors? But that could cut the other way, too - minors are vulnerable members of society who need more protection.

Thoughts on an apparent inconsistency?

You really think discipline for a child is the same thing as discipline for an adult? Seriously?

Why don't you just answer the ****ing question for once in your life instead of starting a personal pissing match?

So tired of your bull****.

Then do better.

You probably have the lowest IQ of anyone on this board. And you think you have the highest one.

It's quite entertaining.

Do you realize that your **** adds nothing to this place? Absolutely nothing. You're dead weight here, if that. You need to reassess everything about your posting philosophy. Maybe even start anew with a new username. That would be your best bet.

Pure tragic comedy.

 

[Ace]

I like oop, fine, ****.

 

[Dick Whitman]

All I was trying to say is that it is interesting that in one context we think corporal punishment works, and in the other, we would never even think that it works at all. Obviously the psychology of adults and children are different, but I thought it was a decent discussion point.

Sorry for ever ****ing bringing it up.

 

[Blitz]

Don't sweat it, ****.
People on this board (a good number of them anyway) do far less discussing of topics than they do of seeking opportunities to ridicule fellow posters.
Whether we here agree or disagree with corporal punishment is not going to affect whether it's ever adopted or spurned by the nation's various school districts.
We should at least be able to accept everyone's opinions.

 

[outofplace]

Don't sweat it, ****.
People on this board (a good number of them anyway) do far less discussing of topics than they do of seeking opportunities to ridicule fellow posters.
Whether we here agree or disagree with corporal punishment is not going to affect whether it's ever adopted or spurned by the nation's various school districts.
We should at least be able to accept everyone's opinions.

If all I had done on this thread was take cheap shots, that would be a fair point. But I didn't, so it's not.

I was discussing the point -- you don't discipline a child the way you would discipline an adult. He just doesn't like the way I made my argument.

 

[Blitz]

its just opinions.
why do we attack so often instead of just moving forward with our own new points?

 

[outofplace]

its just opinions.
why do we attack so often instead of just moving forward with our own new points?

I was responding tto the question. As far as attacks go, well, perhaps you should re-read the exchange.

 

[Dr. Van Nostrand]

its just opinions.
why do we attack so often instead of just moving forward with our own new points?

Because we were spanked too often as children?

OK, sorry for the smart-assery, but things are getting WAAAAAY too serious in here.

 

[JR]

A teacher or principal in Ontario who laid a hand on a student would be justifiably fired with cause and charged with assault. The fact that it's allowed in some jurisdictions in the US is astonishing.

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

 

[Dick Whitman]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

 

[JR]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

Sorry, ****, maybe I misinterpreted you.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

Sorry, ****, maybe I misinterpreted you.

I meant the opposite. We would never, ever, ever think that corporal punishment would be an OK choice for adults in prison. It's a non-starter. It sounds ridiculous to even say it. But we - or at least some of us - think it's OK for the most mentally, emotionally, and physically vulnerable members of our society. I was thinking aloud about how we reconcile that.

 

[outofplace]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

Sorry, ****, maybe I misinterpreted you.

I meant the opposite. We would never, ever, ever think that corporal punishment would be an OK choice for adults in prison. It's a non-starter. It sounds ridiculous to even say it. But we - or at least some of us - think it's OK for the most mentally, emotionally, and physically vulnerable members of our society. I was thinking aloud about how we reconcile that.

Which was already explained to you -- because you have to approach disciplining a child differently than you would approach disciplining an adult. It is a horrible comparison.

The part about them being physically vulnerable is irrelevant. We're not talking about caning or punching children here. We're talking about a spank, or some other corporal punishment that is meant to get their attention, not cause any real damage.

That physical vulnerability is also one reason that it is so essential that we find some manner of effective discipline. With the youngest of children --ones who are still learning to communicate and incapable of making rational decisions -- sometimes that's what it takes to keep them from harm. If a spank on the tush helps keep little Johnny from putting himself in danger, so be it.

Yes, they are mentally and emotionally vulnerable -- one more reason that finding an effective means of discipline is vital.

Do I think the idea of corporal punishment in school is a terrible one? Absolutely. But to dismiss it as a disciplinary tool in any situation and at any age is short-sighted at best. It may not be necessary for every child, but for some, it most definitely is.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

Sorry, ****, maybe I misinterpreted you.

I meant the opposite. We would never, ever, ever think that corporal punishment would be an OK choice for adults in prison. It's a non-starter. It sounds ridiculous to even say it. But we - or at least some of us - think it's OK for the most mentally, emotionally, and physically vulnerable members of our society. I was thinking aloud about how we reconcile that.

Which was already explained to you -- because you have to approach disciplining a child differently than you would approach disciplining an adult. It is a horrible comparison.

The part about them being physically vulnerable is irrelevant. We're not talking about caning or punching children here. We're talking about a spank, or some other corporal punishment that is meant to get their attention, not cause any real damage.

That physical vulnerability is also one reason that it is so essential that we find some manner of effective discipline. With the youngest of children --ones who are still learning to communicate and incapable of making rational decisions -- sometimes that's what it takes to keep them from harm. If a spank on the tush helps keep little Johnny from putting himself in danger, so be it.

Yes, they are mentally and emotionally vulnerable -- one more reason that finding an effective means of discipline is vital.

Do I think the idea of corporal punishment in school is a terrible one? Absolutely. But to dismiss it as a disciplinary tool in any situation and at any age is short-sighted at best. It may not be necessary for every child, but for some, it most definitely is.

I don't understand why this couldn't be your first answer.

One of my guiding philosophies is that no intuition should go unexplored, and that if something is "obvious," then we should be able to articulate why - and should. In this kind of case, there are plenty of times when there are parallels between two seemingly unrelated situations. Yes, there is most likely a difference in the way children react to corporal punishment and the way an adult would. Which is something I noted in multiple ways in the post that set you off in the first place. But I wanted to tease that out all the way. If everything is so "obvious," then why do we even have a field of behavioral psychology in the first place? I can't help but find it interesting that corporal punishment is a non-starter in one case (adults), but considered viable in another (children).

This is an even more interesting dichotomy when you consider that many other nations - and 30 states - have decided that corporal punishment is not effective in children, or certainly that the burden does not outweigh the benefit. So a minority of states and a minority of nations agree with you: That children are "different" in some significant way from adults that makes corporal punishment a viable and productive option, whereas it would not be for adult offenders. In other words, in 2011, I am the one in the majority here, not you. The burden is on you to reconcile the difference. Not on me. Which made it a perfectly valid issue to raise.

 

[CarltonBanks]

"I always picked the hammer. ... Because, '**** him,' that's why." - "Good Will Hunting."

He picked the wrench, my good man. And that movie is awesome.
I went to a catholic school where my knuckles felt the wrath of many a nun's ruler. Also, one of those evil women was notorious for pinching the top of the shoulder near the neck and squeezing very hard in a way that would induce much, much pain. At home my father, who was a technical sergeant in the Marines, spanked me about five times in my life...and each time I deserved it. He was a badass (still is at 66) and let me know, in no uncertain terms, why he was punishing me and he never got carried away with it or actually HURT me. Yes, it didn't feel good but there is a difference between punishing a kid and hurting a kid...and that's an important distinction here.

There were different results. The crazy nuns at school only made me hate going to school because you would be punished for the smallest of offenses (like hitting a baseball over the fence and into the street that ran next to the playground) without a second thought. Made me worry more about staying out of the way of the nuns and less on what they were supposed to be teaching me. At home, however, when my father would discipline me I knew I deserved it and learned from my mistakes because, hell, although it is cliche I know it hurt my father as much or more than it hurt me to spank me. As a parent I now understand why...you would die for your kids and never want them to feel one bit of pain. But it is very necessary, and when my three-year-old went running out of the front of the store and into the parking lot, without stopping to look to see if any cars were coming, he got the spanking he deserved. And it sucked to do it. But he learned his lesson.

 

[outofplace]

The poster who advocated corporal punishment in prisons is living somewhere in the 1800's

No, no, no, no, no, no, nooooooooo.

That's not what I was doing.

Sorry, ****, maybe I misinterpreted you.

I meant the opposite. We would never, ever, ever think that corporal punishment would be an OK choice for adults in prison. It's a non-starter. It sounds ridiculous to even say it. But we - or at least some of us - think it's OK for the most mentally, emotionally, and physically vulnerable members of our society. I was thinking aloud about how we reconcile that.

Which was already explained to you -- because you have to approach disciplining a child differently than you would approach disciplining an adult. It is a horrible comparison.

The part about them being physically vulnerable is irrelevant. We're not talking about caning or punching children here. We're talking about a spank, or some other corporal punishment that is meant to get their attention, not cause any real damage.

That physical vulnerability is also one reason that it is so essential that we find some manner of effective discipline. With the youngest of children --ones who are still learning to communicate and incapable of making rational decisions -- sometimes that's what it takes to keep them from harm. If a spank on the tush helps keep little Johnny from putting himself in danger, so be it.

Yes, they are mentally and emotionally vulnerable -- one more reason that finding an effective means of discipline is vital.

Do I think the idea of corporal punishment in school is a terrible one? Absolutely. But to dismiss it as a disciplinary tool in any situation and at any age is short-sighted at best. It may not be necessary for every child, but for some, it most definitely is.

I don't understand why this couldn't be your first answer.

One of my guiding philosophies is that no intuition should go unexplored, and that if something is "obvious," then we should be able to articulate why - and should. In this kind of case, there are plenty of times when there are parallels between two seemingly unrelated situations. Yes, there is most likely a difference in the way children react to corporal punishment and the way an adult would. Which is something I noted in multiple ways in the post that set you off in the first place. But I wanted to tease that out all the way. If everything is so "obvious," then why do we even have a field of behavioral psychology in the first place? I can't help but find it interesting that corporal punishment is a non-starter in one case (adults), but considered viable in another (children).

This is an even more interesting dichotomy when you consider that many other nations - and 30 states - have decided that corporal punishment is not effective in children, or certainly that the burden does not outweigh the benefit. So a minority of states and a minority of nations agree with you: That children are "different" in some significant way from adults that makes corporal punishment a viable and productive option, whereas it would not be for adult offenders. In other words, in 2011, I am the one in the majority here, not you. The burden is on you to reconcile the difference. Not on me. Which made it a perfectly valid issue to raise.

No, the majority does NOT believe that the same methods used to discipline children should be used for adults. Nice try at twisting things, but reality is getting in your way there.

Try disciplining your kids the way you would an adult. Please. Just be sure to report the utter failure when you're done, ok?

 

[Azrael]

This thread should be caned.