Cam Newton or Michael Vick?

[shockey]

Shocky, it's the extra six inches and 50 pounds that is very tough to ignore.

no, it really isn't.

the question wasn't, 'if they both were to hit their ceiling which one would you pick?'

it was 'coming out of college which would you pick?'

my mind, as often happens here, be boggled. heck, there are many 'round here who prefer gabbert to newton... now he's a superior prospect to michael vick? oh, my....

 

[93Devil]

Don't pro teams draft players for how good they could be and not how good they are?

 

[Mizzougrad96]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Shocky, it's the extra six inches and 50 pounds that is very tough to ignore.

Then you'd favor JaMarcus Russell over Joe Montana?

 

[novelist_wannabe]

If I draft Newton, can I get Malzahn to come with him?

It's an interesting comparison, because both players in college made their teams miles better than they would have been otherwise. Auburn's a 4 or 5 loss team without Newton. I bet the same could've been said about Vick. He almost beat Florida State by himself.

 

[outofplace]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

No selective memory at all. He was a quarterback who lacked accuracy and hadn't really gotten much better even with the playing time in college.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

No selective memory at all. He was a quarterback who lacked accuracy and hadn't really gotten much better even with the playing time in college.

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

 

[shockey]

Don't pro teams draft players for how good they could be and not how good they are?

both. and this is largely how cam has flown up the charts in such a short time. but deciding between two prospects in a fictional draft in which vick and newton were available which would you pick, a huge factor would be their body of work, given both are gifted athletes. you're trying to maximize which has the best chance of reaching that ceiling and newton's body of work falls frighteningly short in that regard.

it's not dissimilar to the real 'peyton vs. leaf' debate (mostly a media creation going into the '98 draft). leaf's 'upside' off of one big year in college was hyped as superior to manning's, with some idiots arguing peyton had already reached his 'ceiling' in 4 years of college experience and leaf had the stronger build and stronger arm and stronger 'upside.'

peyton, in 4 years of scrutiny, had a perfect off-field/personality/work ethic side of things. leaf already was regarded as an immature potential headcase. hey, sometimes those guys can mature and hit their ceiling, i suppose (i don't recall many qbs who have done so, though).

the longer your body of work in college is, the more info can be compiled on you, the more experiences your exposed to give everyone more chances to see how you respond, etc.


just look at the examples in this year's draft, and others before, when qb's were hurt, not helped, by staying in school for another season. jake locker, for one. it would've been better for him if he'd come out last year, but better for the nfl that he didn't so they could have more evidence to go on.

newton did the right thing, in this case. turns out he'll never be a hotter commodity. but i guarantee you that every team in the league would've liked him to stay in school because someone's about to pony up a huge amount of money on a qb they wish they had more of a body of work to go on.

 

[outofplace]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

No selective memory at all. He was a quarterback who lacked accuracy and hadn't really gotten much better even with the playing time in college.

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

And it took him how many years and a jail sentence to become what they envisioned?

 

[shockey]

OH, AND BY THE WAY, vick was no 'slam dunk.' there were many who worried about his size and passing ability (accuracy, not arm strength). but if you wanted a qb that year, he was the only guy worthy of the top pick. but the qb-needy chargers traded the top pick overall to the falcons so atlanta could draft vick.

if vick was this 'slam dunk' of which you speak san diego NEVER would've traded the chance to get him. they ended up with l.t. (the running back) fifth and still had brees fall to 'em at the top of round 2. atlanta was in desperate need of putting fannies in the seats and, to their credit, recognized vick woe an instant god among their fanbase. but heck, even before his dog-fighting controversy, vick was a devisive figure among nfl coaches, gm's and fans -- only this past 'comeback' season started convincing his naysayers that vick just might fulfill all of his spectacular potential.

 

[outofplace]

OH, AND BY THE WAY, vick was no 'slam dunk.' there were many who worried about his size and passing ability (accuracy, not arm strength). but if you wanted a qb that year, he was the only guy worthy of the top pick. but the qb-needy chargers traded the top pick overall to the falcons so atlanta could draft vick.

if vick was this 'slam dunk' of which you speak san diego NEVER would've traded the chance to get him. they ended up with l.t. (the running back) fifth and still had brees fall to 'em at the top of round 2. atlanta was in desperate need of putting fannies in the seats and, to their credit, recognized vick woe an instant god among their fanbase. but heck, even before his dog-fighting controversy, vick was a devisive figure among nfl coaches, gm's and fans -- only this past 'comeback' season started convincing his naysayers that vick just might fulfill all of his spectacular potential.

Exactly.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

No selective memory at all. He was a quarterback who lacked accuracy and hadn't really gotten much better even with the playing time in college.

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

And it took him how many years and a jail sentence to become what they envisioned?

We're talking about him as a NFL prospect coming out of college.

Yes, Vick is a colossal douchebag who spent his prime in the clink.

That's not the debate. The debate is whether Vick was a better prospect coming out of college in 2001 than Newton is a decade later.

It's not close. If you asked this question to a NFL GM, he'd have to stop laughing to answer you.

It's not close.

 

[shockey]

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

now that thar's 'revisionist history.' only one team was willing to 'give up anything' for vick. and the team that traded away the pick was qb-needy, too. qb-needy teams with the top pick overall DO NOT trade away 'slam-dunk' qb prospects.and the qb ended up drafting in round 2 has been better than vick by a wide margin in the nfl.

just sayin'.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Vick doesn't fit in every system. He definitely would not have fit in San Diego's.

The Chargers took two future Hall of Famers in that draft. In the Vick trade, the Chargers got LT, Merriman and Kaeding. That's not bad.

There was still never any debate as to who was going No. 1 in 2001.

 

[outofplace]

People have very selective memories when it comes to Vick.

I think you might have to go back to the 1980s to when the No. 1 pick was such a slam dunk.

No selective memory at all. He was a quarterback who lacked accuracy and hadn't really gotten much better even with the playing time in college.

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

And it took him how many years and a jail sentence to become what they envisioned?

We're talking about him as a NFL prospect coming out of college.

Yes, Vick is a colossal douchebag who spent his prime in the clink.

That's not the debate. The debate is whether Vick was a better prospect coming out of college in 2001 than Newton is a decade later.

It's not close. If you asked this question to a NFL GM, he'd have to stop laughing to answer you.

It's not close.

You're missing my point and you are getting far too caught up in what he did last year. As shockey pointed out, there were plenty of reasons to doubt him and many of those showed up during his pro career. The guy did not come close to putting it all together until after he went to jail, which apparently woke him up and got him to put more into developing his game.

Was Vick more clearly the top quarterback in that draft than Newton is now? Sure. But the gap is not what you are making it out to be and he certainly wasn't nearly the slam dunk you seem to think he was.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Yet teams were willing to give up just about anything to get him. That's interesting...

now that thar's 'revisionist history.' only one team was willing to 'give up anything' for vick. and the team that traded away the pick was qb-needy, too. qb-needy teams with the top pick overall DO NOT trade away 'slam-dunk' qb prospects.and the qb ended up drafting in round 2 has been better than vick by a wide margin in the nfl.

just sayin'.

They do if he doesn't fit their system. They were targeting Brees at the end of the first round. They tried to move up to take Brees, failed and then still got him in the second round.

 

[93Devil]

I just want to say that I hope football never goes away.

God, I love this sport.

 

[Sam Mills 51]

It's Vick and it's not even close (Mizzou was a little harsh in his first post, but not really surprising, either).

-The hot trend was that your team HAD to have the mobile, running, double-threat quarterback, and Vick was faster and more elusive on his feet as anyone before - or since. Fans and even the media were led to believe that everyone needed a mobile quarterback or they were going to watch the parade go by. Obviously, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Drew Brees have since proven that dropback QBs can still get the job done.
-His accuracy was questionable - still is - but anyone who didn't see the strength in that arm was either nuts or in complete denial. Let's put it this way, as Mizzou and shockey have already done in essence: Scouts, coaches and other NFL execs knew his accuracy was a question mark, but still coveted him.
-Chargers management was fielding calls by the bunch. Think Marty Hurney has the same options with the No. 1 pick looming? We don't know, of course, but I just don't think that Call Waiting will be necessary.
-For those saying "Newton" because of his size, JaMarcus Russell was bigger and could throw the ball a mile. How did that work out for him?

 

[shockey]

The Chargers took two future Hall of Famers in that draft. In the Vick trade, the Chargers got LT, Merriman and Kaeding. That's not bad.

There was still never any debate as to who was going No. 1 in 2001.

no, there wasn't. 'cause if atlanta hadn't ponied up, a.j. smith would've taken vick no. 1 without hesiation. again, qb-needy team made deal with another qb-DESPERATE team. smith played it beautifully.

this year, there are, what, 8-10 'qb-needy' teams? yet we about any of 'em calling the panthers to trade up for cam. for the umpteenth time, this is not to say he won't turn out to make all of 'em regret not doing so. but the fact is they haven't.

and why is that? 'cause he's not the 'slam-dunk' sort of qb prospect you mortgage the house on. if he falls to you and you like him, great. not all the 'slam-dunk' qbs end up being all that, but any time a team makes a trade to get a qb no. 1 it means they're convinced he's a slam dunk.

just sayin' i don't see where anyone has put there money where their mouth is 'cause they're so convinced cam is one of those 'slam dunks.' but this is the great thing about the draft -- we're all gonna find out eventually whi was right and who was wrong...

 

[Mizzougrad96]

The Chargers took two future Hall of Famers in that draft. In the Vick trade, the Chargers got LT, Merriman and Kaeding. That's not bad.

There was still never any debate as to who was going No. 1 in 2001.

no, there wasn't. 'cause if atlanta hadn't ponied up, a.j. smith would've taken vick no. 1 without hesiation. again, qb-needy team made deal with another qb-DESPERATE team. smith played it beautifully.

this year, there are, what, 8-10 'qb-needy' teams? yet we about any of 'em calling the panthers to trade up for cam. for the umpteenth time, this is not to say he won't turn out to make all of 'em regret not doing so. but the fact is they haven't.

and why is that? 'cause he's not the 'slam-dunk' sort of qb prospect you mortgage the house on. if he falls to you and you like him, great. not all the 'slam-dunk' qbs end up being all that, but any time a team makes a trade to get a qb no. 1 it means they're convinced he's a slam dunk.

just sayin' i don't see where anyone has put there money where their mouth is 'cause they're so convinced cam is one of those 'slam dunks.' but this is the great thing about the draft -- we're all gonna find out eventually whi was right and who was wrong...

Right. In five years we could all be laughing about how much better Christian Ponder is than Gabbert, Newton etc...

It is interesting that when a team trades a boatload of picks to move up to No. 1, it usually winds up being worth it. (I know you can debate Eli Manning vs. Philip Rivers, but Manning certainly hasn't disappointed). Legal problems aside, Vick has delivered.

Jeff George didn't, but that was quite awhile ago...