Another baseball scoring question

[joe_schmoe]

A friend of mine said one of his co-workers had this play happen in a HS game, and their staff couldn't agree on the right scoring. I normally have a good grasp of scoring, but I was a bit stumped myself:

Bottom of the 7th inning fastest runner on the team is third with one out in a tie game. The batter hits a normal length fly ball to right. The runner tags up, and it looks like it's going to be a simple sac fly to end the game...which essentially it was but:

the right fielder drops the ball. The runner scores without a throw and no one is sure the batter ever actually made it to first (since he became irrelevant).

What's the scoring on the play? Is there a sac and an error? Just a sac? Just an error?

Both the college and HS score manual have the same rule regarding a sacrifice:

"A sacrifice fly
is credited when, with fewer than two outs, his fly, fair or foul,
enables a runner to score. In either case, the sacrifice ruling applies
when the batter is put out before he reaches first base or
would have been put out if the ball had been fielded without
error."
The "in either case" part refers to sac bunt or sac fly.

Which, if it it weren't a game-ender, the ruling would be Sac, E9.

But I would think the the E9 would refer to why the runner reached first. But since his reaching first became irrelevant here, does the error also become irrelevant?

I can't find my case book, so I don't know if this is covered or not.

 

[micropolitan guy]

Sac fly, e-9. RBI, no charged at-bat, earned run if the batter advanced to third without benefit of an error or passed ball. It's still an error because the out should have been made, sac fly or not.

 

[joe_schmoe]

Micro, that was my thought too. But the argument was made that in its most basic definition, the drop may not need to be an error because it did not "prolong the time at bat of the batter or
the time as a runner," since the game ends and getting to first was irrelevant and the sacrifice takes care of the run.

To put it another way, just because the play should have been made and it wasn't doesn't always mean it's an error.

I can see it both ways.

 

[Hank_Scorpio]

Micro has it right. You don't assume future plays. You rule on the one play as it happened.

In this case, you have to account for the batters' at bat. The sac fly accounts for that, but the dropped ball means he'd reach base, thus you have to give the error.

 

[bpoindexter]

E9, and from what I'm visualizing, an RBI should be awarded.

 

[HanSenSE]

E9 and and RBI for sure, but does awarding a sac fly assume there would have been no play at the plate? Or is it like not assuming a double play?

 

[apeman33]

If the ball was dropped, doesn't the batter still have to touch first? If he never got there, then he would have been called out for leaving the baseline. That has to be considered, doesn't it? Plays that normally have to be appealed are automatic outs in high school, so the runner would be called out as soon as he leaves the basepath. And if that's what he did, then the putout goes to the first baseman unassisted. And if an out is made while the ball is in play, then I don't know if you have or can give an E9.

High school rules. Bleah.

 

[bydesign77]

If the ball was dropped, doesn't the batter still have to touch first? If he never got there, then he would have been called out for leaving the baseline. That has to be considered, doesn't it? Plays that normally have to be appealed are automatic outs in high school, so the runner would be called out as soon as he leaves the basepath. And if that's what he did, then the putout goes to the first baseman unassisted. And if an out is made while the ball is in play, then I don't know if you have or can give an E9.

High school rules. Bleah.

If it's less than two outs, it really doesn't matter if the runner touched first, because that out wouldn't have ended the inning.

Also, running out of the baseline, in of itself, is not a reason to be called out. That's a common misconception.

NFHS 8-4-1(g):The runner is out if: he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or 1. This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw. 2. The batter runner is considered outside teh running lane lines if either foot is outside either line.

 

[BB Bobcat]

It's a Sac fly, RBI, E9. Doesn't matter that the batter never touched first unless the defense actually threw to first to get him out, in which case it would be an RBI on a 9-3 "groundout"

As for the out of the baseline thing, this is more of an abandon his effort to reach base thing, which is different. If a guy strikes out on a ball in the dirt and doesn't run to first at some point he's just out if he's clearly abandoned his effort. The catcher doesn't have to keep chasing him and he can't decide 10 minutes later to go to first. In this case, since the game ends when the run scores, I would just stick with the E9.

Actually, it's like a game-ending ground rule double where the batter stops and never goes to second. I don't think he gets a double.

Know what, I'm going to ask my friend the big league official scorer.

 

[Shaggy]

It's a Sac fly, RBI, E9. Doesn't matter that the batter never touched first unless the defense actually threw to first to get him out, in which case it would be an RBI on a 9-3 "groundout"

As for the out of the baseline thing, this is more of an abandon his effort to reach base thing, which is different. If a guy strikes out on a ball in the dirt and doesn't run to first at some point he's just out if he's clearly abandoned his effort. The catcher doesn't have to keep chasing him and he can't decide 10 minutes later to go to first. In this case, since the game ends when the run scores, I would just stick with the E9.

Actually, it's like a game-ending ground rule double where the batter stops and never goes to second. I don't think he gets a double.

Know what, I'm going to ask my friend the big league official scorer.

No, he gets credit for whichever base he last touched. Robin Ventura made that rule famous with his grand slam single.

 

[Georgiaguy]

It should be a Sac Fly, E9 with an RBI scored to the batter. If the batter abandons his run to first that does not mean the error never happened. As long as it is not the last out of the inning then it doesn't matter if he runs or not. If the runner had been the last out and say the run scored to tie the game then you would have a 9-3 groundout as someone already said.

 

[BB Bobcat]

Ok, in MLB this is actually covered specifically in the rulebook...Skip to the last sentence...

Rule 4.09(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans. PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

So, there is no error because the batter is out for not touching first. He's out on a putout by the catcher, according to my friend the MLB official scorer. I assume he still gets an RBI.

Good question.

Don't know if HS rules are different.

 

[bydesign77]

Bobcat, you're wrong about the third strike thing. I don't have my rule book in front of me to cite the specific NFHS rule, but he's not out until:

1. He enters a deadball area (eg the dugout)

2. All infielders have left the field.

So he can almost make it to the dugout, and then decide to run. Now, you're going to get into running out of the running lane problems here, but that's the rule

 

[apeman33]

This is what I hate about the differences in high school rules. I end up asking questions on routine plays that I don't ask when watching a college or MLB game.

I used to love area American Legion games in the summer when we had it here because they used American League rules, so there weren't any of those dumbass automatic appeal things that left everyone wondering what the **** happened.

 

[bydesign77]

NFHS got rid of the automatic appeal, thank goodness.

 

[joe_schmoe]

My friend said they scored it like the majority here Sac, e9, RBI.
It's just something I don't think I'd ever seen or heard of before.
Not sure if the high school adds the exception that MLB does about the runner refusing to touch first, and again, and again no one was sure if he ever did make it or not.

I'm ordering a new High school stat manual and case book now, since I still can't find mine.

 

[bydesign77]

There's nothing in the case book covering this scenario.

However, it would, by rule, have to be sac fly, e9. The error for prolonging the at bat, and the sac for advancing the runner on a fly ball that caused the batter to be out, or would have been out if no error.

NFHS 9-3-4, 9-5-5

 

[apeman33]

NFHS got rid of the automatic appeal, thank goodness.

Hell, I didn't know that. That will make it easier. Some of the softball rules are still effed up, though.

 

[bydesign77]

There is nothing worse than the DP/Flex rule. I still don't understand it completely, and neither do most coaches. In fact, most don't even use it.

 

[apeman33]

There is nothing worse than the DP/Flex rule. I still don't understand it completely, and neither do most coaches. In fact, most don't even use it.

This. I've seen a couple of different things that explain how it should be used and I still don't have it down (particularly when it comes to subbing for either the DP or the flex). And I guess the coach has to remember to put "DP" and not "DH" because there is a difference and the DH in softball is the same as the DH in baseball (as one umpire told me).