WTF - They Changed The Nicene Creed ??

Controversy about the Creed. A Christian tradition since the rise of Constantinople.

I too had to memorize the creed back in the third grade. I came from a Byzantine tradition, so the words were a bit different than the Roman Catholic version. On the days when I was dragged to Roman Catholic mass, I would recite the Byzantine version (because that's all I knew at the time) and would get all sorts of funny looks from the people around me.

 

How did Constantinople get the works?

 

You're also supposed to beat your chest too and say, "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault".

Guilt is back!

I know this action pre-dates Vatican II, but what the hell are we? Shiite Muslims? The official explanations I've read say it demonstrates an outward expression of prayer. Whom does that serve? I've always felt inwardly-spiritual. To me, most outward displays are just showing off for the benefit of others. If God is omnipresent, he knows how I feel. And it seems to me that if you're at church, that's outward expression enough of your loyalty to your faith.

And as for the new translations, etc., (this crap was started by John Paul II, so my reflexive desire to blame it on Benedict doesn't wash) those who are for it say it's only a few words that change. Who cares about words?

Well, I've dug down deep, and even though I've half-assed it through too many masses to count over the years, I cared about the words I was saying. There was a comfort in them ... and some of them I took more seriously than others.

So for some geeky-ass Cardinals in Rome who have nothing better to do than to live their lives buried in texts, a la The Name Of The Rose, to tell me the words I've been saying my whole life aren't spiritual enough, I've got a big problem with that.

It reminds me of hardcore blues fans ripping the Rolling Stones for not having the dead-eye accurate translation of Robert Johnson's Love In Vain ... as if you couldn't enjoy the Stones' version on its merits because one line was missing. The Catholic Church is acting like completist, dogmatic geeks.

Doth I protest too much? I don't think so. I've had relatives live and die knowing only those words, you're going to tell me it was all wrong because you don't feel like the Latin was translated well enough?

Bullshit.

And why stop there? If we really want the Mass to be authentic, why not turn back the page completely and throw institutionalized antisemitism while we're at it? Hell, bring back indulgences! They were "authentic" at one time too.

And we are doing the Mass in English anyway? Isn't Latin the only true authentic Mass to begin with? So if we're going to be authentic, quid est medium assed?

One of the church's many problems through time is its absolute intransigence towards being an organic body instead of a dogmatic one. The way Mass has been said since Vatican II is an organic outgrowth of how American Catholics perceive their faith. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

That's nobody's business but the Turks, nerd.

 

JP II was perceived as "liberal" because he was the first pope in recent history to allow himself to be portrayed in public media as a human being rather than some celestial authority, but in matters of liturgical and ecclesiastical policy, he was very conservative -- in many ways turning the clock back to before Vatican II and John XXIII. His lengthy tenure also allowed John Paul to pack the College of Cardinals with appointees reflecting his own philosophical views, ensuring church policy and the next two or three popes will continue to promote them over the next several decades.

Benedict if anything is more conservative than JP II. The RCC is marching backward.

 

Well said Bubbler. Part of me thinks that one of reasons is to force people to pay attention rather than going through the motions.

I would be happy if they went back to Latin mass.

I recall back in the 60's when they introduced the "Folk Mass"

My Irish Grandmother called it "the hippy mass" and refused to go if that was the mass of the day.

 

Boom's point about something so automatic you don't even think about it is a good one.

Reminds me of speed-rosary, as if mindlessly and repeatedly saying the Hail Mary within the play clock is, for many, anything more than OCD-comforting and a way to get to work or bingo or fishing on time and still earn points. ThywombJesus is three words, and nowandatthehourofourdeathamen is nine.

Signed,

Ex-seminarian Johnny Dangerously

 

I always thought the folk Mass was a failure too, Boom. Especially because -- by the time I was noticing it in the mid-1980s -- it was still the same "hippie" Catholic musicians from the late 1960s, playing the same Peter, Paul and Mary hymns such as "They'll Know We Are Christians" every week.

On the other hand, I remember my grandmother always bringing her rosary to Mass out of old habit, because back when the priest had his back turned to everyone and blazed through the prayers in Latin, people often said the rosary in the pews because they couldn't understand what was being said.

There's got to be a happy medium, right?

 

At least you stayed in a field where you didn't have to give up the vow of poverty.

 

My church started transitioning to the changes gradually through the year beginning in spring. All these changes are old hat to me.

As for the "And also with you" vs. "And with your spirit," I remember it being a transition as a young kid to go from "And with your spirit" to "And also with you." I guess what goes around comes around.

Also, my church has cards in the pews with all the new words bolded in the prayers that have changed.

 

The official reasoning I got was that this is the more correct translation from the original Latin.

Apparently, the first time they just half-assed it on the translation and after 20 years they went back and checked their work. They wanted to make sure the prayers we're saying are as accurate as possible. This is supposed to be the most direct translation imaginable, so we shouldn't have to change again after this.

I hear other countries, especially those with Latin-rooted languages, didn't have a redux. But I can't confirm or deny this.