1. Welcome to SportsJournalists.com, a friendly forum for discussing all things sports and journalism.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register for a free account to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.
    • Fewer ads.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Walking away from your house/mortgage

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by TwoGloves, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    And just as you are allowed to default on a loan, by law.
     
  2. Lugnuts

    Lugnuts Well-Known Member

    One of the best stories I have seen or read in the past 6 months was actually a piece on The Daily Show about how one of the banking industry trade groups was walking away from its mortgage on the building it had bought.

    It was one of the funniest-- and most pathetic-- things you have ever seen.

    I'll try to find a link.
     
  3. Hate-Miser2

    Hate-Miser2 Member

    I don't look at it as having a moral obligation "to" anyone or anything. I look at it as a question of morals when you say you're going to do something and then don't do it.

    If you're going to use the rationale that "the banks are crooks, so it's OK", then you can't pretend that you're any better than they are. I'm not preaching, as I've made more than my share of mistakes when it comes to finances. But I've also done what I had to do to fix those mistakes without running away.

    If Listener thinks that whole concept is "horseshit", I think that's all you need to know about him.
     
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I am not an expert on lending, but I believe you are very wrong. This does not fall under "business practices."

    When you walk away from a mortgage, you are in breach of a contract. This gives the lender certain legal rights. I believe a lender has the right to take legal action against someone for the amount they owe on a mortgage, and can win judgment for legal fees, too. I know this, because walk aways became such an epidemic for Fannie Mae that that is exactly what they began doing earlier this year - suing people to recoup the outsanding mortgage debt from borrowers who strategically defaulted on loans (as is the case of the OP) in jurisdisctions that allow for deficiency judgments.

    Also, walking away doesn't just wash your hands. I imagine you are still on the hook for property taxes and your local government can take legal action for failing to pay. They can also do so for abandoning and neglecting a home, even if it is not uniformly applied.

    This is not simply a matter of two parties entering in some kind of non-legally binding caveat emptor agreement. When you default on a contract you are legally liable for your breach. That is certainly the case for a mortgage agreement.
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    No, you're not. When you violate a contract, you subject yourself to possible civil exposure. See my previous post about the legal actions Fannie Mae began bringing against people.

    Also, your second post has nothing to do with your first post about banks doing things that laws prohibit them from doing. Lots of people and entities would do things that laws stop them from doing if the laws didn't exist. What was the point?
     
  6. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    The point was that is expected in a business transaction for both sides to act within their rights to further their best interests, accepting any consequences spelled out in the law and contract for those actions.

    If he's willing to accept the consequences spelled out but still feels the action is in his best interest, then that's a perfectly moral way to behave, in line with that expectation.
     
  7. Lugnuts

    Lugnuts Well-Known Member

    OK - I found it.

    The story is called "Mortgage Bankers Association in Strategic Default on its Own Property."

    Whether Jon Stewart likes to admit it or not, this is journalism, and it's really fucking great.

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-7-2010/mortgage-bankers-association-strategic-default

    (Story also touches on the 'moral' issue.)
     
  8. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    It's a business decision, nothing more or less.
     
  9. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    At least in California, a home bought with a first mortgage, a.k.a. a "purchase-money loan," is secured only by the property itself. Legally, the only thing a lender is entitled to receive is the home itself. This changes if a home is refinanced or for a second mortgage.

    http://works.bepress.com/george_kuney/1/

    And here is a list of what the Web site calls "non-recourse walkaway states." There's a caveat that they can theoretically go after you for financial losses, but only if you have any other assets and the difference in recovery is worth the time, effort and cost of legal fees to the bank.

    http://www.mortgagereliefformula.com/recourse/

    The first link looks academic in nature, the second looks like it's from a business specializing in helping people through foreclosures. So take from that what you will in terms of bias. But it's pretty clear the only tool in the banks' arsenal is the threat of ruining your credit. So if that is the best option, that's all there is to it.

    So, yeah, "moral obligation" = horseshit.
     
  10. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I never said anything about a moral obligation. Not sure where you got that from.

    I said it is not, as you simply put it, a case of two business entities acting within the terms of an agreement.

    Someone who walks away from a mortgage has breached an agreement.

    As you pointed out yourself (and I am not an expert, so I have no clue about specific states), even in one of the "walkaway states," the bank can come after someone with assets if they walk away for those assets and the difference, if it is worth the time, effort and cost of legal fees to the bank.

    You (or someone else) stated up top that this was somehow a two-way street. I will fight that myth every time its posted. The bank has lived up to its agreement. The person who defaults on their loan hasn't, and as is the law, can be subject to civil action, even if it isn't always applied because it isn't worth the bank's expense, or the person happens to live in a state that shields those without any assets left (not the case of the OP, by the way).
     
  11. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    The posts you were responding to were part of a conversation about the morality of the situation.

    I'm not saying "Screw teh banks because they did bad stuff too!"

    I'm saying you have no moral obligation to do anything besides what the law and the agreement allow you to do, just as they would. The laws and agreements were written in such a way that walking away is an option, with consequences you can weigh for yourself.
     
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Once again, that is EVERYTHING in life.

    I can shoplift a piece of candy. It's an option. I would do so with consequences that I can weigh for myself.

    Or if you want it to be a civil kind of action, I can refuse to pay my landlord, if I rented. It's an option. I would do so with consequences that I can weigh for myself.

    He, like the holder of your mortgage, DOES have recourse.

    This isn't a simple two-way street business transaction without someone being in breach, as others have represented it. In this case, the bank has lived up to the terms of the mortgage agreement. The person who walks away has broken a contract. That DOES give the lender rights -- whether for practical reasons or not they exercise them. And as I pointed out in the case of Fannie Mae, the number of people with assets who were walking away got to be so epidemic (and the political pressure Fannie Mae was facing, so great) that they did begin a policy of going after those people with litigation.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page