Tiki Barber -- Hall-of-Famer?

I'm not saying his coaches didn't use him correctly as an argument for why he should be in the HOF. I was simply pointing out that the only real argument against him being in the HOF is his lack of TDs, which are a byproduct of the coaching staffs not giving him the ball on the goal line.

It's inarguable that he doesn't have great TD numbers. I was just pointing out why they aren't better.

All of his other numbers are outstanding and I think he ends up going in based on those numbers.

 

When it comes to running backs, I don't care much for all-purpose yards. The real way to measure the great ones are rushing yards, and rushing yards alone. Barber has done well in that regard, but I'm not sure he would warrant HOF status as he is now.

I'm reserving my right to change my mind, though, when I can research this a little more and put more thought into it.

 

I can understand not including punt/kickoff yards in measuring a back because an average KO guy can easily average 20 yards per touch, but why not total yards from scrimmage? Otherwise, you have completely devalued Marshall Faulk's career.

 

Not really. With 12,279 rushing yards, Faulk ranks ninth all-time, sandwiched between Hall of Famers Jim Brown and Marcus Allen. In other words, he was in good shape already, and those other yards simply put him way over the top.

Now look at Barber, down at No. 21 all-time, behind Corey Dillon and Edge and in front of Warrick Dunn and Fred Taylor -- not near as impressive as Faulk.

 

generally speaking, on hof matters, if you have to pause to think about it, then no.

in tiki's case, he knows he could need another high-end season after this one. if he does retire after this season, he'll know he'll be ending his chances to make the hall. he apparently doesn't care enough to keep at it. so why should we? ??? ??? ???

 

Have all these people saying no one game plans around Tiki talked to NFL coaches? I've heard quite a few say exactly the opposite. Ask Bill Parcells this week if he has to account for Tiki. I believe he's already said just that (and I'm 100 percent sure he said it last year).

The one thing that forces opponents to account for Barber is his ability as a home-run hitter. He has 112 career plays of 20 yards or more (66 rushes, 46 passes, many of which were screens and flares that he broke for big gains). For reference, Marshall Faulk, rightly considered a certain HOFer, has 125 20-plus plays -- 67 rushes and 58 receptions -- in 2-plus more seasons. Barber had more than 10 runs of 20-plus in three of his previous four seasons, including 16 last year. His career rushing average of 4.7 yards per carry is better than outstanding (better than Faulk, Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, LaDainian Tomlinson, Ahman Green, Curtis Martin and Fred Taylor). Defenses ignore Barber at their peril.

Oz, how can you completely discount receiving stats for a running back? I'd say that's a large part of his job description, especially in the 25 or so years since the rise of the West Coast offense. Barber's ability to catch and turn a short pass into a big play is a huge weapon and one reason that defenses do have to game plan for him. As an HOF voter, you simply can't ignore what will surely be more than 5,000 yards and 46 gains of 20 or more yards.

Is Tiki in? I'm not sure. Thurman Thomas needs to get in first. But saying you can ignore Barber's (or Thomas') receiving stats is ludicrous. And saying defenses don't have to account for Barber in their game plan is false.

 

And you also take away nearly 7,000 receiving yards and 36 TDs if you take away Faulk's rec. stats. And it also ignores a key reason why Faulk and Barber were so successful -- they were such a key component to their team's offenses that you couldn't ignore them, even on obvious passing downs. Barber has been the top 8 in the league in yards from scrimmage each of the last five years and was No. 1 in 2004 and 2005. Why does it matter whether those yards come running or passing? The first down marker doesn't make those distinctions.

 

To clarify my comment, "The real way to measure the great ones are rushing yards, and rushing yards alone."

I do not advocate tossing or ignoring receiving stats, by any means. What I was getting at is that the best running backs will have great rushing numbers, no matter what their role, and the other stats help complete the resume. So in Barber's case, you have a very good runner who was dangerous catching out of the backfield. But he is still not in the same class as Faulk when you compare them in rushing yards (12,279-9,319), receiving yards (6,875-4,905) or touchdowns (136-62) right now.

If Barber were to reach 11,000 yards rushing, I don't think there would be any debate. But him retiring now, that's where we are.

Priest Holmes led the NFL in yards from scrimmage in 2001 and 2002, then set an NFL record for rushing touchdowns in a single season in 2003. He just didn't play long enough. The same might go for Barber, too.

 

What sort of non-round-number arbitrary horseshit is that?

 

John Riggins, O.J. Simpson > 11,000
Ricky Watters, Eddie George, O.J. Anderson < 11,000

http://profootballreference.com/misc/rsy.htm

 

It's interesting to look at Thurman Thomas' career. I think he's a no-brainer Hall of Famer. But his career was sort of like Barber's in reverse -- after his rookie year he had five excellent seasons, followed by a few so-so years, and then a few more where he didn't do much (except add about 1,300 yards to his career total). Barber began his career with three unimpressive seasons, followed by a couple of good ones, and he's been excellent since 2002. Should he be punished for deciding not to hang around and pad his stats? I can see both sides of the argument.

One other thing about Barber, as someone mentioned: His average of 4.7 yards/carry is outstanding, not just when compared to his peers, but also in comparison to the all-time greats. Among the top 20 career rushers, the only ones with a better average are Jim Brown (5.2), Barry Sanders (5.0) and Joe Perry (5.0). O.J. Simpson also had a 4.7 average. Payton and Dickerson are next on the list, and they only averaged 4.4.

 

Yeah, he's like Kirby, except for the beating up women part...