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The Sacha Baron Cohen Thing about Zuckerberg et al

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Songbird, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member

    Ragu, did you listen to his brilliant speech?

    His characters are essentially bait.
     
    OscarMadison likes this.
  2. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member

    And I have said this before, what was written in 1776 is not sacred. Technology is demanding us to rethink it.

    Cohen is saying if we want to keep 1776, then we need to manage the technology.
     
    OscarMadison likes this.
  3. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    Shouting 'fire' in a crowded theater - in which there is no fire - strikes me as false information. As do many examples of libel or slander.

    Some 'fighting words' can likely be construed as 'hate speech.' So can some incitements to riot.

    We're pretty comfortable regulating some speech some of the time.

    Interesting question as to whether Facebook is a publisher - thus bearing certain responsibilities and enjoying certain privileges - or simply a means of mechanical reproduction like the printing press or the telephone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  4. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    People usually go right for the fire in a theater thing. ... but that Oliver Wendell Holmes "falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic" hypothetical was actually the convoluted rationale for a supreme court decision that upheld what should have been an unconstitutional WWI espionage act, and was used to put some radicals in jail for speaking out against the draft. It was the kind of frontline thing a right to speech should have been protecting.

    It's why a government in the business of regulating speech at all is really so dangerous. People are so eager to carve out their own exceptions to free speech, and by opening that barn door they don't realize they are potentially jeopardizing all freedom of speech.

    If Sacha Baron Cohen gave a speech telling people to be smarter about the information they trust or to stop being hateful and prejudiced and start loving each other more and being more tolerant, it would have been one thing. What he did, though, was to point out the shitty things some people say and do (where virtually everyone listening to him is in agreement) and then used that appeal to emotion to advocate regulating speech to achieve the world he wants. Some people think it was brilliant (word Scout used), because they have the same sensibilities about what is good and what is bad. The problem is that if that regulation or censorship power ends up in the hands of someone with different sensibilities, you can easily have something full Orwellian on your hands. Look at who currently has power in this country and imagine if certain people could decide what is factual and what isn't, and censor things by edict.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
    TigerVols likes this.
  5. BTExpress

    BTExpress Well-Known Member

    We're not an independent country? :eek:

    Constitution was written in 1787.
     
  6. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    I'm on your side.

    But as SBC points out, we've set standards for publication and transmission at the movies and on TV and radio for more than 100 years. We regulate false advertising. There are criminal penalties for mail and wire fraud.

    Not all speech is protected at all times.

    And if we decide Facebook is a publisher rather than a technology, I suppose it can be held to some set of standards regarding what it publishes - and what it advertises.
     
  7. justgladtobehere

    justgladtobehere Well-Known Member

    When do things cease to become sacred? Which parts of the Constitution don't apply? After what year do amendments become sacred? Laws passed after what year can have a presumption of being sacred? Not even a thought, let alone an argument.
     
  8. TigerVols

    TigerVols Well-Known Member

    When someone shouts fire in a crowded theater, the theater owner is not held responsible.

    At some point, citizens need to take responsibility for their own intelligence and their actions. It's not up to Facebook to police thought any more than it's up to the government.

    Let's say Sacha Baron Cohen is right, and Hitler did run Facebook ads in the early thirties. Who is to say that's a bad thing? What if by running those ads, he brought immediate and massive attention to his despicable plans? What if that caused the left to get its shit together, rise up, and stop the Nazis early in their tracks?

    I run more than $100,000 worth of Facebook ads a week, so I know they are effective. I also know that my ROI has been dropping rapidly because the platform is gaining in popularity and the ad inventory remains the same. That tells me that all of the Facebook lies being spread by the right could be forced out by truthful ads from the left.

    It's up to citizens to convince other citizens, using whatever tools are available. At this point, only the forces of evil are using those tools. That's not the toolmaker's fault.
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I couldn't agree with that post more. All of it.

    I'd take it a step further, even. Most of the calls to regulate Facebook or break it up aren't even predicated on some clear and present danger rationale (the fire in a theater thing). It's always a more nebulous, "They are too powerful" brand of populism. That was a theme of the Baron Cohen speech.

    But gazillions of people aren't using Facebook because somebody mandated that they have to use it. If you don't like it, you are free to not use it. If everyone dropped Facebook tomorrow, because it sucked, Facebook wouldn't have any "power." The reason it has that power is because people *gasp* have made the choice to use it on their own -- apparently, Facebook brings value and utility to all of those people. ... as defined by themselves!

    Yet, you have this patrician group of people who want to tell everyone else what is best for them and subvert their individual choices. And I never get why others are so OK with that.

    The end result if those hyenas manage to get their way isn't just likely to be an infringement on speech (terrible in itself), but practically. ... something that is valuable to people (as defined by themselves) might be destroyed. We're all worse off whenever government does these things -- it affects our quality of life.

    I am a big proponent of individualism. People can decide for themselves whether the info they get from Facebook is worthwhile. If it's not, maybe Facebook will perish on its own. Or maybe Russian trolls will give up on using it to try to sow discord, because people reject their BS.

    I would be all for Sacha Baron Cohen giving a speech telling people to have their antennaes up on social media, or decrying hate and asking people to reject it. Maybe we need more of that. But he really loses me when he takes it a step further and advocates restricting mediums -- for example, he talked about jailing Mark Zuckerberg because of some "foreign power interfered in our elections" standard. Really?
     
    bigpern23 likes this.
  10. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

    Oh that Sacha ...

     
  11. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

  12. Scout

    Scout Well-Known Member

    Wow.

    Rudy is now the creepiest man alive.
     
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