Mark Buerhle > Jack Morris?

A lot of your argument in favor of Morris over Buerhle comes down to, "He pitched for better teams."

 

I love debating the Jack Morris HOF merits with friends and co-workers. (I am on the non-HOF side.) But probably my least-favorite argument is "But he was the best pitcher of the 80s!" While picking those years out is convenient, it doesn't really make any more sense than arguing for someone else by saying "But he was the best left fielder from 1983 to 1992!"

I think there were betters "80s" pitchers -- Clemens, Gooden, Ryan, Hershiser, and then you had great pitchers who finished up in the 80s (Carlton, Blyleven, Seaver) and others who were just getting started (Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz?, Schilling?). The 1980-89 argument in favor of Morris is arbitrary and, as the statistics appear to show, not accurate anyway.

Buehrle also not a HOFer.

 

They just aren't even in the same category.

Morris had more complete games in 1982 and '83 than Buehrle has had in his entire 15-year career. Buehrle's career high is 245 innings; Morris exceeded that in eight different seasons.

Looking at numbers is great. Looking ONLY at numbers is folly.

 

Agreed.

For instance, comparing IPs in the 1980s to IPs in the 2000s and 2010s!

 

What's wrong with that? If a player is the best at his position for a 10-year span -- any 10-year span, regardless of whether the first one ends with a 0 -- I'd say that's a pretty good foundation for a Hall of Fame case. That's not the end of the argument, obviously, but it seems like a pretty strong start for one.

 

As a way of illustrating how different the pitchers are, I think it's pretty relevant.

But, you're very committed to this idea of similarity between them, I see.

 

Hershiser or Morris?

 

I'm just saying - and I think you'd agree - that pitchers were much more likely to pitch CGs and throw 250 innings a year in the 1980s. Morris was a workhorse in his time. Perhaps the workhorse of his time. Buehrle is at least in the team picture for workhorse of his time, and perhaps the workhorse of his time, as well.

 

For those who care about such things, WAR:

Mark Buehrle 57.0
Jack Morris 43.8

Morris had three seasons of 5+ WAR, with a high of 5.8.

Buehrle has four such seasons, with a high of 6.1.

 

I think Buehrle, unless the bottom drops out, which is certainly possible, is going to get to about 230-240 wins with high 60s WAR.

That's a damned strong case.

If he gets there, of course.

 

Dick, you make a strong case, so why muck it up by trying to suggest the inevitability of Buehrle approaching Morris in innings. According to your numbers, he is 900 inning shy. So he would have to average 225 innings a year in his 35, 36, 37 and 38 year old seasons to get there. He has averaged 205 innings the last four years. Not saying it is impossible, but let's be realistic.