Jim Webb's Mi Lai Moment

John Kerry already knows the answer.

 

In combat, while the chain of command itself is upheld and respected, there are cases where rules are broken and it's accepted by the military as a whole. Just very difficult to draw that line.

 

Boom,

The two Baby Boomer presidents, coinciding with a dramatic shift in the way politics was covered, and television itself. For the first time, you had children of 60s covering their peers (Clinton, Bush), and you had news organizations directly profiting off of this divisive coverage. It's brought us, IMO, to the height of selfishness, bloated self-importance, and greed in all the worst ways - greediness to be right, greediness to see the other side fail, greediness to have one's position prevail, no matter the cost to civility or discourse. We're basically in a political culture where nobody listens to anybody on anything, everybody's apparently self-taught and self-sufficient in the art of politics (Bush sure acts like he was born with some intuition no one else has, and Obama displays that occasionally, too). In a culture where everything seems so clear to everybody, when everybody seems to know, for example, the framer's intent in the Constitution - but everybody can't agree - I don't know what we're left with. Utter nonsense?

 

I agree with most of what you say, I'm not ready to agree that Webb has "pass sins'' (and I acknowledge you might not be). He followed the rules he was given. He clearly cared. Once again, what if he had lied, the medavac came, drew fire, and someone involved got hurt? I realize it's a hypothetical, but no more than the possibility that the boy could have been saved at all.

And one more time, none of us was there, none of us knows the exact situation, it takes a lot of gall to question his actions. You/I can't even imagine being in that position (maybe alley can).

You guys are falling right into line with the swift boat playbook, which I think is Boom's real motivation here in the first place. Label Webb as some kind of war criminal at worst, someone with bad judgement at best. I can't believe there are people here who fall for it.

This is how you pull this crap - you throw it out there, create a little debate, even if it's mostly people just saying "why is Boom saying this, why's he comparing it to My Lai,'' then it becomes news that there is some debate about it and the original, total nonsense of the whole thing gets lost in the shuffle.

I have a brother who was in vietnam. he came home with a nice medal (not sure which one). We asked him what it was for, he said he ran up one side of a hill, the enemy ran down the other. We didn't believe him for one minute, but it was clear he didn't want to talk about things that happened over there.

There's no way we, now, can come close to determining, and we have no right to try to, if what Webb did was right or not.

 

Digger...I won't pretend to understand this from a ground troop's perspective. I was Navy and most of our enemies we fired upon were too far away to be see with our own eyes. Not sure if anyone else here can add ground troop perspective, but my point about the fog of war stands true. Liken it to the confusion facing a police officer during an armed conflict, only it's a situation that involves many more people, lasts much longer and is likely infinitely more dangerous.

The decisions you make at the time are ones you hope are right, based on your extensive training and preparation, but even then, every single choice may not always be the best. Other than cases of outright stupidity or recklessness, however, I believe a certain amount of outsiders accepting decisions made in the confusion has to be made.

 

Sorry for being cynical but far too many times these stories change when witnesses pop up.

Do you recall in 2001 how Bob Kerry's story about his SEAL team raid on Nam Village changed when 60 minutes came up with a witness still living.

Its good to be cynical - charlie pierce tells us so in his fine story in Obama in Esquire.

 

Boom:

Have you read the entire book or just the kiddie version that appeared in Parade? I suggest reading the entire book, which I did during the past few days, puts a lot of Webb's life in context ...

 

Digger, don't assume motivations from Brother Boom.

Webb won't need any help should the Swift Boaties come after him. He doesn't give a shit. When he pounded lightweight George Allen, Webb made no mention of his Navy Cross, his Silver Star, his two Bronze Stars.

Nor does the "war criminal" tag fit.

Besides this is all speculation. Move on folks.

Semper Fi

 

Without having read the full chapter, a comment on the excerpt:

Webb writes a piece about the value of 'leadership' and 'accountability' - in which he displays neither. Not by helping the boy, nor by discouraging his troops from indiscriminately fragging civilians in their spider holes, nor by writing honestly about the event years later.

This still might have worked as a rhetorical strategy, if he could tell us how his lifelong remorse for that incident specifically taught him 'leadership,' and how he's grown into his own personal idea of 'accountability' because of it.

But he expresses no deep or personal shame or regret regarding the matter. Reveals nothing about what the specific emotions of that specific event mean to him. Rather, in a weirdly impersonal and emotionally disconnected paragraph, he mouths some second-person platitudes about how 'you' need to see the horrors of war and the moral trouble it makes for us all.

Then he goes on to tell us that accountability is really, really important in our politicians.

An empty nod toward personal history written by a politician during an election cycle? I guess I'm not sure why we're even talking about this.

 

Boom has a track record, so I'm pretty safe in making assumptions. Especially when the title includes the words "My Lai''

You want the truth? I think Boom is actually figuring Webb is going to be on the ticket, and he's beginning the process in his mind of why Webb will be unacceptable.

 

FHB your guess is correct. I would not hesitate to vote for Webb. Hope he does run for President some day.

I've always admired Webb. Felt he was the real deal. That is why I am troubled by this story. Webb has always stuck me as a policy be dammed take charge kind of person and this story contradicts that feeling.

JG - my thoughts may be a little bit more tempered but we are clearly on the same page in how we interpreted the story. Why now. You put it much better but I was taken by how easily he explained away a grave error made by his platoon.

As it did with Bob Kerry I just hope there is not another shoe to drop.