Jeff Passan on David Ortiz's HOF credentials

Reading any discussion where outofplace is heavily involved is exhausting.

 

Ortiz is borderline even without the PED issue.

But he's been given a free pass on everything during his career, so why shouldn't he not be held accountable for cheating?

 

He's in the Hall of Close but no Cigar.

No defense. No League MVP. 1 HR title. 2 RBI title.
Never led the League in OPS, OBP, SLG.

He's 45th in career HRs. 171st in career runs scored. 65th in career RBI. 100th in career total bases. 80th in adjusted OPS+.
He's not even an all-around great offensive player, very good batting average but not excellent. No speed.

And of his 436 career HRs only 96 came off LHP and his BA vs LHP is about 30 points less than his career BA v RHP.

If you put a DH in the Hall of Fame his offensive numbers should be historic, not great relative to his ERA.

Gossage, Eck and Rivera are Hall of Fame Closers, Is Ortiz the Eck or Rivera of DHs? I don't think so.

 

Why should this part matter?

 

Here's another guy who was significantly worse against left-handers:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=willite01&year=Career&t=b

Granted, his overall value was enough to make him a Hall of Famer regardless of his splits. He's not a borderline case like Ortiz. But in a borderline case like Ortiz, why would what appear to be typical lefty-righty splits count against him? I could understand, I suppose, if he was so useless against left-handers that you couldn't trust him in the lineup. But he's a perfectly viable major league hitter against left-handers.

I just find that to be an odd argument against him. Have others made it? Have others made it regarding other players?

 

Well he did lead the AL in on base in 2007.
And while he win an MVP award, in consecutive years he finished 5th, 4th, 2nd, 3rd and 5th.

One, you are leaving out the fact that he is not done, so all those counting numbers will go up. He is a year left on his contract, so even if he just halves his numbers from 2013 in 2014, he would go to 40th in homers, 146th in runs and 85th in total bases. He's also 43rd in extra-base hits, 65th in RBI, 82th in walks, 26th in career slugging percentage, 38th in career OPS.

Two, postseason is a factor. And being the common denominator for three title teams, and playing a vital role for all of them, counts for a lot.

 

Also, and this is not worth as much as it used to be, but he's a member of an iconic team, the 2004 Red Sox.

 

I'm on record as thinking he gets in based on his narrative and postseason stuff, but if you want to judge Ortiz against other people already in the Hall, it's probably most fair to compare him to 1B. And his numbers vs. enshrined 1B are not that great, especially when you factor in that Ortiz played in an easier hitter's era. He presumably has a couple years left to pad his resume, but he would have one of the lowest WAR ever: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_1B.shtml

 

I understand that.

And if you want to go by OPS+ if Ortiz was a first baseman he'd be 13th in history at the position for guys with 8,000 plate appearances behind, in order, Gehrig, Pujols, Foxx, Musial (counted at the position by BR.com), Thomas, Roger Connor, Bagwell, Thome, McCovey, Killebrew, Anson, Giambi.

As long as he gets through 2015 healthy for 9,000 plate appearances, the list gets shortened to Gehrig, Pujols, Foxx, Musial (counted at the position by BR.com), Thomas, Bagwell, Thome, McCovey, Killebrew, Anson.

 

Ortiz is absolutely a Hall of Famer. If the Yankees had signed him after 2002, they would have won 4 more titles 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2011).

 

Reading posts whining about other board members rather than actually contributing to the discussion is exhausting.

 

Cooperstown-bound. This World Series performance is one for the ages.