Jamie Moyer, HOFer?

I'll stand by my assessment and not what is on a bubble gum card. I covered Kaat late in his career. He was a great guy and was always in shape. There's no question that being a southpaw and being lucky (ie. the right organization) helped both remain in the bigs a lot longer than most.

 

Who is the worst non-relief pitcher in the Hall?

About a decade ago I was at dinner with a longtime baseball writer who made a pretty decent argument for Phil Niekro being the worst in Cooperstown.

 

Not arguing that.

But he also got guys out. That's what kept him in the big leagues longer than most. And that's what keeps Moyer in the big leagues. He gets guys out, which is what pitching is ultimately about.

Good pitchers get guys out, whether they throw 100 MPH or 65 MPH, and that's a concept many people refuse to grasp. You don't have to be a power pitcher to be a great pitcher, and you don't last for 20 years in the majors and win 280-plusd games, like Sutton, John, Kaat, Blyleven and other whose accomplishments are often minimized and denigrated by the "big numbers just because they played a long time" tag.

You last that long because you're still effective.

 

There's a big difference between being effective and being great. All you have to do is look at his ERA to see he hasn't been great.

 

Never said he was great, or deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. But he's a good, effective pitcher, whether he's 27 or 47. And 60-65 percent of the time, the Phillies win when he pitches.

And those stats dismissed as "numbers on a bubble gum card" enabled the Phillies to win the 2008 World Series, to reach the series in 2009, and to stay in the race this year.

Your eyes tell you Cole Hamels is a far better pitcher than Jamie Moyer. Yet Moyer has six more wins (51-45) over the past four seasons. On the field results matter.

 

- a one-time all-star in more than 25 seasons of service
- only twice among top five in Cy Young voting, and never higher than fourth

It shouldn't even be up for discussion.

Hell, there is a lot of debate about Jack Morris. At least he can claim a World Series MVP, 5 all-star appearances, 5 times in the top five of Cy Young voting and a slightly better winning percentage (.577 for Morris, .571 for Moyer).

 

All-time or modern era?

I would put Drysdale and Sutton above Niekro and maybe Perry ( though Perry does have two Cy Youngs) amongst modern guys. What was the Niekro arguement? I've always felt he was a middle of the road HOF...won a lot for bad teams.

All-time? There are some shitty choices by the Old-Timers commitees such as Rube Marquard, Chief Bender, Jessie Haines and Pud Galvin that really are mistakes.

 

Actually, Moyer is a better pitcher now (in terms of stats) than he was at 27.

 

Don Drysdale only had two 20-game seasons. I think he has the fewest wins for any starting pitcher (211) in Cooperstrown, except for Koufax, who at least was a dominant pitcher for four seasons.

He had no stretches of sustained excellence. He pitched for 14 seasons, not a exceptionally long career, and was either four games ofr fewer above 500, or below .500, for 10 of them. He was 3-3, 2.95 in the World Series, hardly exceptional.

He is the "worst" pitcher in Cooperstown. He got in because of his association with Koufax, because he pitched in a large media market, and because of his scoreless-innings streak.

 

I should clarify that I meant that Drysdale and Sutton were worse pitchers than Niekro in the Hall. I will also throw a guy named Jack Chesbro in their. He had one big year for the New York Highlanders (Yankees) and the rest of his career, he was a No. 2