Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson, Did it happen?

Mr7134 · Jun 9, 2007

I stumbled across this post on another forum and found it very interesting.

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.php?showtopic=37088

Boxing, moreso than any other sport I can think of, loves to wallow in mystery and conspiracy. It's not surprising given its illegal nature in most of the country up until the early 20th century, but it does leave us with many seemingly contradictory and nebulous factoids to sort through.

One whispered rumor that stretches back to the 1920s is this:

In 1921, immediately following his record-breaking million-dollar gate fight against Georges Carpentier, heavyweight champion of the world Jack Dempsey quietly drove up to Saskatoon, Canada and, in an illegal prizefight staged by high-roller gamblers, met and knocked out Jack Johnson, the former heavyweight champion who had been released from prison in July of that year.

A tall tale perhaps, and one that begs many questions - Dempsey made $300,000 to fight Carpentier, how much could a hundred-or-so high rollers offer the champ for a private bout? The biggest elephant in the ring, of course, is the lack of confirmatory evidence in the papers of the day. Or so I thought.

A seller on eBay claims to have an original copy of a 1921 newspaper, "The Brooklyn Eagle", which purportedly has a round-by-round description of the bout as relayed to them from a firsthand source in attendance.

Now this rumor of a Dempsey vs Johnson fight stretches all the way back to this period, but neither Dempsey nor Johnson ever confirmed it, or even debunked it to my knowledge. Boxing historian Monte Cox gives the following account of Dempsey's reaction to the rumor:

Lew Eskin, former Boxing Illustrated Editor, wrote an article about it in Dec 1985 Fightbeat magazine. He asked Dempsey about it who was evasive. The only thing Jack would say is he boxed a series of exhibitions during that time. He asked Dempsey if he could publish the story in B.Ill. but Dempsey said, "Not Now" which Eskin took to mean not in his lifetime. The bout with Jack Johnson was allegedly an under the table affair for rich gamblers.
Click to expand...

One of the truly intriguing aspects of Jack Dempsey was that as a mature adult world champion, he worked tirelessly to recreate his image as that of a gentleman, and did a good job of it too. He took diction lessons, read a newspaper from front to back every single day, and made every effort to distance himself from gamblers and other shady types (Al Capone was a big Dempsey fan and actually offered to promote Dempsey after Jack split from Doc Kearns - Dempsey quickly and quietly declined). But there is no doubt that during his hardscrabble years as a young hobo and itinerant worker, Dempsey couldn't help but associate with such men - heck, he worked in brothels and speakeasies all over Colorado and Utah! Dempsey was so ashamed of this aspect of his life that he outright denied all of it after his career was over; even the 1917 Fireman Jim Flynn fight in Utah, a dive so blatant that both fighters were chased out of town and boxing banned, is stated by Dempsey himself as being completely on the level - the journeyman Flynn KO'd Dempsey with one punch within 10 seconds (for his part Dempsey took his money, rumored to be $500, and was fighting in California 3 weeks later).

So Dempsey was not above doing the bidding of gamblers during his young and hungry years out west. Could he have repaid a favor to some by fighting Jack Johnson in some remote Canadian basement only 4 years after the Flynn debacle? I don't know, but I'd sure be curious to read that article!
Click to expand...

The link to the E-Bay seller is below...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-oddball-boxing-item-Jack-Johnson-Jack-Dempsey_W0QQitemZ170116596372QQihZ007QQcategoryZ31635QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

chazp · Jun 9, 2007

I wonder if there are microfilm in the city archives of The Brooklyn Eagle?

HejiraHenry · Jun 9, 2007

wrong usage of the phrase "begs the question," but otherwise quite fascinating.

Terence Mann · Jun 9, 2007

To 99 percent of the population, that is the right usage of the phrase "begs the question." That 99 percent knows what the writer means. The language is organic, and this is how words end up with more than one meaning in the dictionary. Eventually, even the most unrelenting academics will probably acknowledge this as an acceptable alternate definition for "begging the question."

Anyway, fascinating story.

Fenian_Bastard · Jun 9, 2007

Thank you, Terence, for that entertaining trip into postmodern language theory.
That said, this is a fascinating story that I have never heard before. Ken Burns's Jack Johnson film certainly never mentioned it. It's hard to believe Dempsey, who was a restaurateur and party guy, wouldn't ever have let it slip, but...

HejiraHenry · Jun 9, 2007

Terence Mann said:

To 99 percent of the population, that is the right usage of the phrase "begs the question." That 99 percent knows what the writer means. The language is organic, and this is how words end up with more than one meaning in the dictionary. Eventually, even the most unrelenting academics will probably acknowledge this as an acceptable alternate definition for "begging the question."
Click to expand...

No, sorry, this is the hill I have chosen to die on. So be it.

Fenian_Bastard · Jun 9, 2007

It is a good day to die for language.

buckweaver · Jun 9, 2007

Fenian_Bastard said:

Ken Burns's Jack Johnson film certainly never mentioned it. It's hard to believe Dempsey, who was a restaurateur and party guy, wouldn't ever have let it slip, but...
Click to expand...

Agreed. Also hard to believe that there would be little mention in the press on a fight between such heavyweights (pardon the pun) of the time as Johnson and Dempsey.

Huggy · Jun 9, 2007

Fascinating stuff, indeed. I've read plenty on both men and never heard that before. Never heard of the Brooklyn Eagle but how many papers were there in New York at the time? And nobody else picked up on the rumour of a fight between two of the most famous (or infamous in Johnson's case, I guess) athletes in America at the time?

Johnson died in 1946, 25 years after this alleged fight took place and Dempsey died in 1983 so it's not like they're wasn't plenty of time for the press to ask about it.

hickory_smoke · Jun 11, 2007

Here's the origin of the Brooklyn Eagle article.

Chicago Tribune boxing writer Ray Pearson created a hypothetical bout between Dempsey and Johnson taking place in Saskatoon on Dec. 4, 1921, a week before the item appeared in the Eagle. Both stories include a round-by-round account with Dempsey knocking out Johnson in the seventh.

I can't link the Trib account here since it's on an academic database. If you PM me, I can email it to you.

Log in or Sign up

Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson, Did it happen?

Mr7134 Member

chazp Active Member

HejiraHenry Well-Known Member

Terence Mann Member

Fenian_Bastard Guest

HejiraHenry Well-Known Member

Fenian_Bastard Guest

buckweaver Active Member

Huggy Well-Known Member

hickory_smoke Member

Share This Page

Log in or Sign up

Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson, Did it happen?

Mr7134 Member

chazp Active Member

HejiraHenry Well-Known Member

Terence Mann Member

Fenian_Bastard Guest

HejiraHenry Well-Known Member

Fenian_Bastard Guest

buckweaver Active Member

Huggy Well-Known Member

hickory_smoke Member

Share This Page

Useful Searches