Howard wins NL MVP

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

mustardbased said:

jagtrader said:

It's interesting that the voters went for Howard, a DH on a non-playoff team
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That's about the most ridiculous thing I've read about Howard here (non-Pube division).
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Louis Braille Jr. pipes in.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

casty33 said:

Isn't it at all possible that we can all agree that we're talking about two valuable players here and not rip the writers who had the extremely difficult task of picking one of them? I can do that but apparently some of you can't.
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Cleanup in aisle 2.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

mustardbased said:

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to vote Pujols. The his-team-made-the-playoffs argument isn't one of them. The Cardinals wouldn't have finished within five games of first in ANY other division. In fact, the Phils won more games than the Cardinals.
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Bull-SHIT.

Pujols KNEW how big that homer was before he hit it.

He was in a crucible few major leaguers, much less mopes such as us, ever feel.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

jagtrader said:

Oz said:

jagtrader said:

It's interesting that the voters went for Howard, a DH on a non-playoff team, but won't vote for Ortiz. They also didn't vote for Ortiz over Rodriguez last season. The criteria change depending on which way the wind blows.
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To be fair the Red Sox never were in contention the last six weeks, after the Yankees' five-game sweep at Fenway, while the Phillies never would have been in contention had it not been for Howard. Non-playoffs, sure, but in the hunt.

And A-Rod (48-130-21-.321) had a damn good case last season, like Ortiz (47-148-1-.300). You could have argued that one either way -- voters went with the better average, stolen bases and defense there.
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Yeah, but the Phillies didn't make the playoffs and won 85 games. It's not like Howard turned them into some powerhouse. The Red Sox won 86 games.

I love Howard. He might be my favorite player on the Phillies. But there's a clear double standard here. Howard IS David Ortiz without the clutch hits. The only difference is Howard owns a glove and stands in the vicinity of first base. He's among the worst defensive players I've ever seen.

If you want to vote based solely on offense, fine. If you want to vote solely on qualifying for the playoffs, fine. But you can't vote for Howard and then vote for Jeter. It's not consistent.
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How can anyone argue this post on the merits?

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

buckweaver said:

silvershadow:

Pujols can't win the MVP based on what his team does in the postseason. Votes are tallied before the playoffs begin.

outofplace said:

buckweaver said:

How was Howard's selection -- I'll go out on a limb and say you disagree : -- on the order of Pendleton in '91? Bonds had an off-year (for him), and Pendleton's intangibles were a huge part of the reason the Braves rallied to win the NL West.
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Pendleton in '91 was a disgrace. I figure that balances things a bit for at least one of the MVP's Bonds won while he was using performance enhancers (ok, allegedly using).
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Explain, please. Bonds didn't even make the All-Star team that year. It was his worst season of the 1990s (except when he was injured in '99). Pendleton compares favorably or equal to him in almost every stat except stolen bases. And Pendleton was the de facto captain of a Braves team that improved from 65 wins to 94 in his first year there.

Pendleton -- .319 (1st in NL), 22 HR, 86 RBI, .517 SLG (3rd in NL), .880 OPS (6th in NL), 94 R (9th in NL), 303 TB (1st in NL), 34 2B (7th in NL), 8 3B (6th in NL), 64 XBH (5th in NL), 111 RC (2nd in NL).

Bonds -- .292, 25 HR, 116 RBI (2nd in NL), .514 SLG (4th in NL), .410 OBP (1st in NL), .914 OPS (1st in NL), 95 R (8th in NL), 262 TB (10th in NL), 107 BB (2nd in NL), 43 SB (5th in NL), 109 RC (3rd in NL), Gold Glove in LF.
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I don't consider .880 OPS as close to .914.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

casty33 said:

Okay, outofplace, that's a fair comment. I didn't mean your opinion doesn't matter, just that it doesn't mean anything in the voting genre. Your opinion is as important as mine, since I don't vote anymore, but it isn't as important as someone whose vote is counted in the actual results. That's all I meant. Your opinion is well noted on this board.
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True.

You guys are actually able to fuck it up, as opposed to us.

outofplace · Nov 21, 2006

casty33 said:

Okay, outofplace, that's a fair comment. I didn't mean your opinion doesn't matter, just that it doesn't mean anything in the voting genre. Your opinion is as important as mine, since I don't vote anymore, but it isn't as important as someone whose vote is counted in the actual results. That's all I meant. Your opinion is well noted on this board.
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That was my point, Casty. I just don't care for big-timing on this board and I know you usually don't do that. I honestly would have just said something snarky (like Columbo did) and let it go if I didn't respect your opinion.

If I remember correctly, you have stayed away from the board for a while on at least one occasion in the past because of the ugliness we sometimes engage in as a group. That makes me think you understand the importance of all of us treating each other with respect.

Oz · Nov 21, 2006

Six posts in a row for you, Columbo ... is that a record for you?

beefncheddar · Nov 21, 2006

Columbo said:

Pujols KNEW how big that homer was before he hit it.
He was in a crucible few major leaguers, much less mopes such as us, ever feel.
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Did he also know how big his multitude of outs was while the Cardinals were nearly pulling off the greatest choke job in MLB history?

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

Oz said:

Six posts in a row for you, Columbo ... is that a record for you?
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I have chunks bigger than that in my stool.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

outofplace said:

casty33 said:

Okay, outofplace, that's a fair comment. I didn't mean your opinion doesn't matter, just that it doesn't mean anything in the voting genre. Your opinion is as important as mine, since I don't vote anymore, but it isn't as important as someone whose vote is counted in the actual results. That's all I meant. Your opinion is well noted on this board.
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That was my point, Casty. I just don't care for big-timing on this board and I know you usually don't do that. I honestly would have just said something snarky (like Columbo did) and let it go if I didn't respect your opinion.

If I remember correctly, you have stayed away from the board for a while on at least one occasion in the past because of the ugliness we sometimes engage in as a group.
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Spurred on then by casty again having a bout with condescension.

He's a chronic in talking down.

Columbo · Nov 21, 2006

mustardbased said:

Columbo said:

Pujols KNEW how big that homer was before he hit it.
He was in a crucible few major leaguers, much less mopes such as us, ever feel.
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Did he also know how big his multitude of outs was while the Cardinals were nearly pulling off the greatest choke job in MLB history?
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Multitude of outs?

Every player in major league history... every single one... has made a multitude of outs.

Clue rental time... again.

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