1. Welcome to SportsJournalists.com, a friendly forum for discussing all things sports and journalism.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register for a free account to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Access to private conversations with other members.
    • Fewer ads.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Hillary vows to break up OPEC

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Chi City 81, May 5, 2008.

  1. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Ragu your non answer to my question speaks volumes
     
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Um, maybe I just didn't see it until you dragged the thread up from page 5?

    Lots of factors contribute. Mostly, it's that people don't want U.S. dollar-based investments, because the dollar is losing value, so they turn to the few investments actually increasing in value, for example, oil (and gold and other commodities which are getting more expensive in an inflationary environment).

    If this is what you mean by your speculators, it's kind of ridiculous. They are the egg, not the chicken. The supply and demand factors are what they are, Boom. Jeez. Pick up any business magazine and read right now. I can point to dozens of other things having an effect on the oil market, including a weak dollar.

    We'll see if people investing in the oil market lose money on their investment. If they don't, and the price keeps rolling along to $200 a barrel, oil is priced fairly.
     
  3. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    By the way... None of that has anything to do with arbitrage, derivatives, Enron, any legislation, or the myriad of other things you have posted about, which have made no sense to me, Boom -- and you haven't explained beyond just throwing out terms, so I am finding it difficult to understand you and respond.

    You can't regulate investment in the oil markets. For one thing, most of that money isn't American money. Secondly, there is nothing different from investing in oil than there is in investing in Apple stock. Neither is illegal, immoral or a sure thing. You invest at your own risk, which is why there is a buyer AND a seller setting the market price.
     
  4. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Hints of a rift at OPEC about production
    By Jad Mouawad

    Friday, May 9, 2008
    A member of OPEC signaled for the first time in months that the oil cartel might increase its output if prices keep rising, even as oil hit another record on Friday.

    The comments from Libya's senior oil official, Shukri Ghanem, suggested a possible rift among OPEC members. Since the cartel's last meeting in March, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries has argued that the market was not lacking in oil supplies and blamed speculators for driving up prices.

    In recent weeks, prices have come under renewed pressure because of a string of export disruptions from Nigeria. Crude oil for June delivery rose $2.32, or 1.9 percent, to $126.01 a barrel in New York trading on Friday. Prices have been above $100 since early February.

    Since they last increased oil supplies in September, members of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries have abdicated most of their responsibilities toward the market, arguing that the higher prices had more to do with investment flows than with supply and demand.

    The problem for OPEC is that prices have become largely unhinged from real market factors. As the dollar declines and the economy slows, investment funds have moved into commodities like oil or gold, which they consider safer and more profitable than stocks.

    But the political cost of rising energy prices, especially in the United States, which is in the midst of a presidential election, is making OPEC's position increasingly delicate. Economic growth in the United States has slowed and gasoline demand is set to fall this year for the first time since 1991.

    At a meeting of oil producers and suppliers in Rome last month, many OPEC delegates, including the Saudi Arabian oil minister, Ali Al-Naimi, said there were not enough buyers to justify an increase in production.

    But some producers are becoming increasingly uneasy about the run-away prices and are finding it difficult to maintain OPEC's position.

    "They are playing with fire," an analyst at Lehman Brothers, Adam Robinson, said. "Every time the price goes up, and we break a new psychological mark, they risk killing the goose that lays the golden egg. Their biggest fear is triggering something they can't control."

    The group, which accounts for 40 percent of the world's oil exports, is not scheduled to meet until September. At its March gathering, OPEC ignored calls from President George W. Bush and other industrialized leaders to bolster production, opting instead to keep output steady.

    "We would consider among other options the possibility of increasing output as a way to ensure market stability," Ghanem, the Libyan official, was quoted by Bloomberg News as saying Friday. "I expect a meeting before September. I am not calling for one, but I would support one."

    Another OPEC delegate, quoted by Reuters on Friday, also raised the prospect of an OPEC consultation to increase production before the September meeting.

    But there is no suggestion that the cartel will meet soon. On Thursday, the organization's secretary-general, Abdalla Salem El-Badri, issued a statement from the group's headquarters in Vienna, saying there was "clearly no shortage" of oil in the market.

    "In recent month, oil prices have become increasingly volatile, mainly driven by financial market developments and the increased flow of speculative funds into oil futures," the statement said.

    But he seemed to leave the door for OPEC. "The organization stands ready to act if the market shows a need for any further measures," he said.
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    *nod* Naturally we should be listening to what the cartel is telling us the reasons for the increase in price is. I mean, it's not like they would want to make us think it has nothing to do with the fact that THEY ARE RESTRICTING SUPPLY TO THE MARKET.

    Did you actually link to that without comment?
     
  6. markvid

    markvid Guest

    Sure he did.
    What else is there to say?
    I would not be shocked if this rift turns about to be true. They can't all be that dumb.
     
  7. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    As Mark Vid wrote-- " what else is there to say?"

    This says it all: oil prices have become increasingly volatile, mainly driven by financial market developments

    You have continued to insist that oil prices have no link to the financial markets yet here is another example.

    Do you need another source? George Sorors perhaps ? Warren Buffet?
     
  8. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Boom, Go back and read your posts on two threads now. I have never said anything of the sort. You have made all kinds of contradictory claims in trying to engage me, though. You claimed that oil prices are being driven up by "the speculators." And those "speculators" need to somehow be regulated.

    I am telling you they are being driven up by supply and demand factors. It is inarguable. Worldwide demand is soaring, as Asia in particular has greater and greater oil needs that are still getting greater. The world's oil producing countries are producing less of the stuff. Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil producer has been scaling back drilling! I'd draw a supply and demand curve that an 18-year-old first-year economics student can understand if I could. When supply decreases and demand increases, prices go up. It's that simple. The financial markets are SYMPTOMATIC of that. They are not the cause. You apparently can't tell the difference between cause and effect.

    You can't regulate a market like that, unless you want to somehow become cold-war era Hungary. Good luck with that plan. It still won't make oil cheap and plentiful, even if you totally bankrupt the economy into managed oblivion.
     
  9. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    Ragu you are making arguments based on text book knowledge and not what is really happening in the market. Do yourself a favor and do a little reading on topic. I've tried to save you the trouble by posting story after story but you obviously have chosen not read them.
     
  10. markvid

    markvid Guest

    I am not going to take sides on this one, but from the story Boom posted, it's obvious OPEC is headed for internal struggles concerning production.
    Will this mean anything to us? Probably not, they'll find a way to keep prices up.
    If gas consumption is going down from 1991, why are prices steadily increasing? It's artificial.
     
  11. Boom_70

    Boom_70 Well-Known Member

    That's the central point. Just look at your corner gas station. Why is gas $4 today when it was $3.80 earlier in the week and its the same gas in station tanks.
     
  12. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    On what planet is gas consumption down from 1991? Gas consumption INCREASED dramatically from 1991 to the present (think SUVs) -- until recently and we are only seeing a slight decrease VERY recently because prices got so high.

    It's the equivalent of pissing into the wind (2/10 of 1 percent since last year), because that isn't fairly significant on its own, and ... it has NOTHING to do with worldwide demand. You and the guy you see at the corner gas station aren't determining supply. It's demand in India and China and the rest of the developing world that has been driving demand through the roof. And that demand is continuing to increase.

    Sorry guys. This is really a pointless conversation now.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page