Convince me.

Why blame a god for something science caused?

Cancer, as well as the life that it takes, is all rooted in science.

 

See, this is where I split from traditional believers. "There has to be something more, right?" Why does there have to be? Or, more precisely, why does man's search for meaning have to be attached to a deity? I struggle with purpose a lot. I do. And I particularly struggle with purpose because there is so much to do, so much to absorb, so many choices, and, most vitally, so little time. And not only so little time, but an unpredictable amount of time. I could die today. I could die 60 years from now. I just don't know.

But I don't think there has to be something more, as traditionally contemplated. Isn't advancing humankind enough, on its merits, to imbue one's life with purpose? Why isn't that enough? Why the self-loathing by this species?

 

In my view, thinking there is nothing more to life than advancing humankind seems a bit narcissistic. It's not self loathing, it's accepting that maybe there is more than what I can possibly comprehend.

 

There are things in nature that cause cancer, and there are cancers we don't know the causes of.

Also, if G-d created everything, then he created science, too.

The argument that faith is a very personal thing and that it is difficult to explain to others makes sense to me. My thinking is closer to IJAG's on this. My parents were not a strong influence on me in this area and I don't think I'm wired for it anyway.

So many of the responses just sound like excuses to me and when I read somebody equating watching cancer eat up a loved one as "things not necessarily going the way you want" that crap just drives me insane.

 

To clarify, I don't think that advancing humankind is necessarily the magic bullet. Believers want a magic bullet: This is the purpose. But one person's purpose might be advancing humankind. Another's might be advancing plant kind. Or dog kind. Or having as much fun as possible.

I'm pretty much an existentialist. We're born into an absurd world with no discernible purpose and no plan. I know it's nihilistic, but that doesn't mean it isn't the case.

 

I can understand this point of view, even if I disagree with it. There is very little, if anything, that can allow me to conclusively say that I am right and you are wrong. At least nothing I can tell you. That doesn't diminish my faith, however.

The feeling of inner peace is what drives my faith. The idea, or maybe ideal is a better word, of Jesus is something that connects with me. Someone who lived and died solely to help others. That's as good as it gets.

 

Growing up with modern science really impacted my faith. Evolution and Darwin.

Even dinosaurs, whose bones were placed on earth as a test of faith, made me think religion is all hooey.

But recently as I approach my middle years, I have changed my perspective on history a bit. I used to think of the time of Christ as a long, long time ago, and maybe it was all BS. Kind of like how Smith and Mormonism sprung up, just 1800+ years later in the case of Mormons. Christianity all made up by some beard wearing nut. Maybe a well-intentioned nut.

Nearing age 50 though, I recently started to think, you know, 2000 years ago is not that long ago. I have faith that Gettysburg happened 150 years ago, the US declared independence in 1776, etc. So, I have no problem with believing relatively recent history. So why do I have my doubts about Christ running around 2013 years ago? 2000 years is not that many 50 year generations to trace back.

And all that Christianity and Roman Catholicism, etc., didn't spring out of nothing. I definitely believe now that someone named JC ran around years ago. But was he just another Joseph Smith? I don't know.

My former wife used to say that "hell" is the time we spend on earth, experiencing various suffering, and that "heaven" is the peace we will have after our time here on earth is done and suffering is over. Even Buddhism stresses suffering and how to accept it.

Anyway, I am rambling, but I that's kind of where I am now with all this religious stuff. I just wish all religions would stress what they have in common with one another instead of insisting only their way is right. Maybe they are all correct in various ways.

VB

 

I was raised Jewish and I could probably be best described as an Agnostic Jew on my good days, but even I think the stories of Jesus Christ are based in something real. Then again, I also think the tales of Achilles and Odysseus have some basis in reality, too.

I'm not sure your analogy to U.S. history quite holds up, though. Believing historical events happened is not faith. There is a good bit more evidence regarding the Declaration of Independence, for example, than there is of the life of Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not a person of great faith (if pressed, I'd call myself a loose theist who celebrates Christian social holidays), so I can't answer your questions from a personal perspective, IJAG.

I do, however, spend a lot of my time volunteering with extremely ill children. Many of them have various terrible forms of cancer, but others have had equally awful things like intractable brain damage and epilepsy secondary to shaken-baby syndrome, cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, hypoplastic left heart syndrome, polycystic kidney disease, severe cerebral palsy and a host of other conditions/diseases. Many, though certainly not all, of those children have died. Their parents often go through very public struggles or discussions of those questions, and I can tell you how they generally react.

There is a group that gets extremely angry at God, whichever one it is that they worship. They, like you, cannot fathom a reason an all-powerful God can allow something so terrible to happen to a child. Sometimes they lash out in anger at well-meaning friends who try and comfort them with what they feel are empty platitudes about their child being in a better place. They ask very much the same questions as you do, and there are no good answers to them in a situation like this, particularly if your view of a supreme being is that he/she/it is perfect, infallible, all-powerful and all-knowing, and your view of the world is that it is predetermined.

There is a group that leans more heavily on their faith and draws significant amounts of comfort from it. This, in my observation, tends to be a group that believes some or all of the following - God as they know him is extremely powerful and all-knowing but that the people he creates a.) have some modicum of free will that impacts the way their live is led and b.) live in an imperfect world where some things happen that are not directly caused by him. That imperfection can be caused by the free will of the people who live there or by some outside force (the devil for many people). These families tend to draw great comfort from the idea that even if the child dies, which they certainly don't want, the child will go somewhere that they will exist free of pain. They don't believe the pain was intentionally caused by God - rather it was caused by some force acting in opposition to God. And the child dying doesn't mean the devil "wins," it just means that what the devil did was so serious that God decided the best way to rectify it was to bring the child "home" to him.

Others believe that their child was singled out by God to deal with these terrible conditions because God knew the child (and family) had the strength of character to handle it, that the family could be an example of faith in difficult circumstances for less-faithful people in the world. They often pray fervently for an end to the child's illness (so that they can then be an example of how God rewards the faithful) but also feel less angry about the child's possible death because they have an implicit faith that God knows why he did this even if they don't understand it. This group tends to view God as operating at a level they just cannot understand and believe the pain and suffering have some great purpose even though they don't recognize it at the time it's happening. They are often a lot more deterministic than the group that believes in an evil force - they think God has complete control over everything just like the first group. But instead of saying "There is no way in the world this could ever be justified by any sort of God" they say "I don't understand how this could be justified, but I trust that there is a meaningful reason behind it because my faith in God is so great."

There are lots of other ways as well - those are just three general trends I notice in the families I work with. The biggest thing I've picked up from them about faith in terrible circumstances like this is it can be a great comfort. It can also bring additional burden. There are no right answers - there are only the answers that work for the family.

For you, faith might not be the answer for dealing with such a terrible situation. There is nothing good about it - watching anyone die from cancer is just horrific. I'm personally still struggling with a teenage girl I was sitting with the other night. She was in the final stages of cancer, completely aware of her surroundings and completely panicked by the feeling of being unable to breathe as the tumors slowly closed off her windpipe. I don't turn to faith to deal with that because I don't find comfort in it either, but I do envy those who can.

 

Sorry for your pain IJAG, and I'm sorry I can't offer you anything that indicates it happened for a reason. I've struggled with this very question for the past 10 years or so, and here's my conclusion: Suffering and loss happens and there is no rhyme or reason for them. God and religion are conjured attempts to explain that which cannot be explained.

 

That there are things that cannot be explained would suggest that there is a being or entity that is greater than man. The inner peace I feel is hardly conjured from any inability to rationally explain aspects of life and death.

 

I would argue that there are not things that cannot be explained. Just things that have not been explained yet.