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Bret Stephens / 1619

Discussion in 'Journalism topics only' started by Azrael, Oct 10, 2020.

  1. Dog8Cats

    Dog8Cats Active Member

    No doubt about the first sentence.
    As for the second, I'll use a cliche I generally avoid: Two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  2. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

    Bret is not only the whitest guy, but the most deeply put-upon.

    It's ReALLy WeIRd how people like Bret come out of these cloistered academic safe spaces with rigid thinking.
     
  3. 3_Octave_Fart

    3_Octave_Fart Well-Known Member

  4. LanceyHoward

    LanceyHoward Well-Known Member

    OK. So let's teach that the South fought tenaciously to maintain the institution of slavery. When the South lost that war they fought tenaciously to create a society, that through segregation, deprived a substantial portion of the population the right to vote and systematically create an underclass for a century. These injustices were undone only through federal intervention in the 60's.

    Do you think that version is getting into Southern school curriculums any time soon? And I think history ignoring the oppression of blacks is more dangerous than exaggerating the role of blacks in American history.
     
    Donny in his element likes this.
  5. Double Down

    Double Down Well-Known Member

    I can't stand Stephens, but I thought his essay was fair and has raised fair questions ... about the opening essay to 1619. Or to be more specific, about a single sentence in the opening essay.

    But that does not encompass the entire 1619 project, which its critics are quick to tap dance right past.

    To pretend they are all one and the same is an intentionally dishonest slight-of-hand.
     
    Donny in his element likes this.
  6. Dog8Cats

    Dog8Cats Active Member

    I really think we're on the same side.

    There should be a way - in Southern public schools at least (via mandates tied to federal funding, accreditation, what have you) - to get that version taught.

    I'm not trying to discount at all the oppression of minorities and believe that schools should be required to teach it. (I would bet schools spend more time on the Nazi's treatment of Jews than the U.S.'s genocide of Natives.) I just don't think things are helped much by exaggerating and misstating the roles of blacks in history.
     
  7. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

  8. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    No disrespect, but if you haven't read it, how do you know the 1619 Project does so?
     
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, that is a very good summary.

    What Nikole Hannah-Jones did was ambitious, and I understand the temptation in long-form writing to try to wrap things up and put a neat bow on it, rather than acknowledging things that don't fit the perfect and neat premise of your story.

    Where she has completely lost me is how she handles criticism. Tom Cotton, Donald Trump, etc. are one thing. They aren't criticizing her actual work, they are being jackasses and if she comes back at them hard, I have no problems.

    But when faced with legitimate criticism of how far she had stretched (rewritten) little pieces of history to fit her construct, she not only ignored the pushback from those historians before it was published, when it came back to create questions about the legitimacy of her project, she treated the people leveling the criticism like they were Donald Trump or Tom Cotton.

    The “put me in a long tradition of BW who failed to know their places,” was bush and really diminished her in my eyes.
     
    Dog8Cats likes this.
  10. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    She certainly let her anger get the best of her.

    Never tweet.
     
    Double Down and Severian like this.
  11. Severian

    Severian Well-Known Member

    It doesn't matter if you're a black, white, brown, man, or woman; if you fucked up, you fucked up. No amount of SJWism will save you from that.

    The NYT Public Editor would've been perfect for this situation. Alas...

    I'm more suspicious of Callimachi after reading Ben Smith's piece. If she's had a history of shady reporting practices, then it's more than likely trickled into her current work.
     
  12. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member

    International conflict reporting is incredibly difficult - and often impossible to fact-check.

    That said, I think the "nonfiction" podcast form - as Serialized radio drama - encourages theatricality.
     
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