Billy Wagner HOF?

Thanks for proving my point.

 

Actually it doesn't prove your point.

But the thread has shown what others think of you.

 

I could care less what people think of me. Most of the members here are trolls anyway. There's only a few members that I actually like reading their messages.

It's funny that people "hate" some of my threads, but most of them get close to 100 replies.

 

We love them, but we love them more when there is actually something to debate.

 

This is debatable. But the actual debate is whether more closers should get in.

Eckersly, Rivera, Hoffman - that's about it for my lifetime.

 

Like I've said before, based on the impossibly high standards everyone is setting for relievers there's no way any modern starter should make it into the Hall. Today's starters are making fewer starts, pitching far fewer innings and getting fewer wins.

Or, maybe, you might want to accept how the game has changed over the last 30-40 years and acknowledge the importance of the closer. Wagner is fifth all-time in saves.

So here's food for thought: Fifth in wins? Definitely in the Hall. Fifth in homers? Definitely in. Fifth in hits? Definitely in. Fifth in career batting average? Definitely in.

 

It makes me wonder how many people here are old enough to remember how dominant Sutter and Gossage were back in the day.

I think if these guys were doing the kind of work that Sutter and Gossage did, they would have a much better case to make the Hall.

Closers in baseball (and designated hitters for that matter) may be what punters and kickers are to the NFL (I think only one is in).

How many pitchers who spent their entire (or the bulk of their) careers as closers are in? Gossage, Sutter, Wilhelm and that's it.

 

Perhaps my judgement is flawed. He cost the Braves too much this season.

 

It's a new stat & a new position, so compare it with the fifth in all of those categories over the last 20-25 years.

 

Fine, except in all those other categories you could say "15th" just as easily and be right. In this one category, I'm only going to fifth.

And, like I said, if we're going to be so tight on closers, then there's no way that any of today's starters should ever make it.

So, basically, that means that while pitching is probably the most important ingredient in a championship team, we're not going to be putting more than a couple more pitchers into the Hall from here on out. That would make zero sense, but that's what happens when you refuse to acknowledge the game has changed.

 

I'd have less of a problem with Wagner getting in than I would Reardon or Lee Smith.

 

Comparing saves to homers is ridiculous. This is the Hall of FAME. It's about the guys who are famed for their performance. It's not about the relief pitcher with the best strikeouts per nine innings. My wife knows who Pete Rose is. She even knows who Nolan Ryan is. If I asked her if she knew anything about Billy Wagner, she'd check the Internet Movie Database. If you think that closers play such a big role in today's game, fine. But that doesn't make them worthy of inclusion anymore than being a great middle relief pitcher might.

By the way,

Tom Henke 2.68 ERA, 311 saves, 8.25 Ks per 9, 1.2 percent HOF voter in 2001

Sure, Wagner was better than Henke. But not by much. He got more outs by strikeout and had a few more years in the pen. But that doesn't make someone jump from 1.2 percent to 75 percent of the votes.