Yankee Fans: Morons

Football_Bat · Jul 30, 2011

outofplace said:

YankeeFan said:

It's dumb, but shit like this always happens.

If you took the poll at the right time, Mark Grace would have been voted the best Cub of all time.
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Given that he played with Sandberg for a while, I doubt it.
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Andre Dawson was miles more popular than Grace, Sandberg, Dunston, or the spare that played third in that era.

Batman · Jul 30, 2011

Thanks. And I don't even like the Yankees

Fail on my part on the Grove/Gomez thing. I always get those guys mixed up, which kind of proves my point about Gomez.
And you're right, Nettles should've been in the Fan Favorites. Thought about him, then forgot to include him.

tapintoamerica · Jul 30, 2011

It's true. Every poll is skewed toward the current player.

Mizzougrad96 · Jul 30, 2011

Batman said:

heyabbott said:

Batman said:

I know his stats weren't as great as most of the players mentioned, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned Phil Rizzuto. He is a HOFer, and his time in the broadcast booth elevated his status as a "true Yankee." He was like New York's version of Harry Caray.

I'd also throw Don Mattingly into the discussion. Again, not the best stats of all-time. But for Yankees fans in the down years of the 1980s and early 90s he was a god. If a vote were taken on best Yankee of each decade, he'd easily win for the 1980s. That's got to count for something.
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I get what you're posting and my attitude isn't best Yankees = Best TURE Yankee, inclusive of my comments about Reggie.
Phil "The Money Store" Rizzuto was an excellent player on great teams. As far as I'm concerned he's a HOFer as the SS on the greatest dynasty in baseball history ('49-'53) which includes an MVP season and a second place in MVP voting. But he's not one of the top 15 Yankee players of all time.
Mattingly is one of my 3 favorite Yankees I've seen (Nettles and O'Neill). A great player, even a dominant player for a couple of years, but you'd have to tell me which player he'd replace in a top 15 list.
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I think they'd both be somewhere between 10 and 15. Just saying they need to be in the discussion.
FWIW, the way I see it, it breaks down into a few clear categories:

1) Mount Rushmore -- Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle
These guys were larger than life, larger than baseball. Not just the greatest Yankees of all-time, but maybe four of the 10 best PLAYERS of all-time. You hear their names and you automatically think of sepia-toned films of them swinging a bat in pinstripes. They're as likely to be mentioned in a historical documentary about their respective decades as a baseball film. Together, they form a chain of success that spans almost a half-century.

2) Legends -- Berra, Jeter, Ford, Rivera.
These are the players synonymous with Yankee success. All four were integral parts of multiple championship teams who spent their entire hall of fame careers (or in Berra's case all but one season) with the Yankees. That's an important distinction from the next group. These guys are baseball icons who continued the Yankee tradition, yet never became American cultural icons the way those first four players did. Berra comes very, very close to that, but he's still more of a sports figure than a general household name.

3) Memory Makers -- Reggie Jackson, Thurman Munson, Roger Maris.
Guys who had their best moments -- history-making moments, even -- in a Yankee uniform, but their time with the team was brief. Not quite good enough or long-lived enough to elevate themselves to the Legends group.

4) Fan Favorites -- Mattingly, Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry, Phil Rizzuto, Andy Pettitte.
Not sure-fire hall of famers like the Legends, not authors of a singular moment like the Memory Makers, these guys are more blue-collar heroes. They hold a special place in the hearts of Yankee fans from a particular point in time. Each is on the top-5 list of best Yankees of a particular decade, but are dwarfed in stature by some of the immortals above them on an all-time scale.

Missing the cut
Roger Clemens, A-Rod: Despite winning a World Series or two with the Yanks, they became superstars in places other than New York. You could even say their best years were in places other than New York. Both were also overshadowed by their peers (Clemens by the perfect games of David Wells and David Cone, A-Rod constantly living in Jeter's shadow).
In many ways, they're also the symbol of what people hate about the Yankees. They signed as free agents well into great careers, seemingly to chase money and a ring. The ties to PED drop them another peg.
Bill Dickey, Lefty Grove, Tony Lazzeri: Too old school to be truly remembered by anything other than hardcore baseball fans. Great players, obviously, but not easily identifiable as Yankees the way the first three groups are.
Ricky Henderson, Wade Boggs: Both contributed to their respective Yankees teams, but had their most significant moments elsewhere.
Jorge Posada: The last member of the "Core Four" deserves a mention, and might even make the HOF someday. But his achievements and contributions pale in comparison next to Jeter, Rivera and even Pettitte.
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Wow... Excellent post...

Baron Scicluna · Jul 30, 2011

Batman said:

heyabbott said:

Batman said:

I know his stats weren't as great as most of the players mentioned, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned Phil Rizzuto. He is a HOFer, and his time in the broadcast booth elevated his status as a "true Yankee." He was like New York's version of Harry Caray.

I'd also throw Don Mattingly into the discussion. Again, not the best stats of all-time. But for Yankees fans in the down years of the 1980s and early 90s he was a god. If a vote were taken on best Yankee of each decade, he'd easily win for the 1980s. That's got to count for something.
Click to expand...

I get what you're posting and my attitude isn't best Yankees = Best TURE Yankee, inclusive of my comments about Reggie.
Phil "The Money Store" Rizzuto was an excellent player on great teams. As far as I'm concerned he's a HOFer as the SS on the greatest dynasty in baseball history ('49-'53) which includes an MVP season and a second place in MVP voting. But he's not one of the top 15 Yankee players of all time.
Mattingly is one of my 3 favorite Yankees I've seen (Nettles and O'Neill). A great player, even a dominant player for a couple of years, but you'd have to tell me which player he'd replace in a top 15 list.
Click to expand...

I think they'd both be somewhere between 10 and 15. Just saying they need to be in the discussion.
FWIW, the way I see it, it breaks down into a few clear categories:

1) Mount Rushmore -- Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle
These guys were larger than life, larger than baseball. Not just the greatest Yankees of all-time, but maybe four of the 10 best PLAYERS of all-time. You hear their names and you automatically think of sepia-toned films of them swinging a bat in pinstripes. They're as likely to be mentioned in a historical documentary about their respective decades as a baseball film. Together, they form a chain of success that spans almost a half-century.

2) Legends -- Berra, Jeter, Ford, Rivera.
These are the players synonymous with Yankee success. All four were integral parts of multiple championship teams who spent their entire hall of fame careers (or in Berra's case all but one season) with the Yankees. That's an important distinction from the next group. These guys are baseball icons who continued the Yankee tradition, yet never became American cultural icons the way those first four players did. Berra comes very, very close to that, but he's still more of a sports figure than a general household name.

3) Memory Makers -- Reggie Jackson, Thurman Munson, Roger Maris.
Guys who had their best moments -- history-making moments, even -- in a Yankee uniform, but their time with the team was brief. Not quite good enough or long-lived enough to elevate themselves to the Legends group.

4) Fan Favorites -- Mattingly, Paul O'Neill, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry, Phil Rizzuto, Andy Pettitte.
Not sure-fire hall of famers like the Legends, not authors of a singular moment like the Memory Makers, these guys are more blue-collar heroes. They hold a special place in the hearts of Yankee fans from a particular point in time. Each is on the top-5 list of best Yankees of a particular decade, but are dwarfed in stature by some of the immortals above them on an all-time scale.

Missing the cut
Roger Clemens, A-Rod: Despite winning a World Series or two with the Yanks, they became superstars in places other than New York. You could even say their best years were in places other than New York. Both were also overshadowed by their peers (Clemens by the perfect games of David Wells and David Cone, A-Rod constantly living in Jeter's shadow).
In many ways, they're also the symbol of what people hate about the Yankees. They signed as free agents well into great careers, seemingly to chase money and a ring. The ties to PED drop them another peg.
Bill Dickey, Lefty Grove, Tony Lazzeri: Too old school to be truly remembered by anything other than hardcore baseball fans. Great players, obviously, but not easily identifiable as Yankees the way the first three groups are.
Ricky Henderson, Wade Boggs: Both contributed to their respective Yankees teams, but had their most significant moments elsewhere.
Jorge Posada: The last member of the "Core Four" deserves a mention, and might even make the HOF someday. But his achievements and contributions pale in comparison next to Jeter, Rivera and even Pettitte.
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Very nicely done.

A couple of others for the Old-Timers role:

Tommy Heinrich: Nicknamed Old Reliable, had 183 HRs in 11 seasons, all with the team. He missed three years due to WWII.

Elston Howard: The first black Yankee, had some excellent years. Would have had more, but he lost time sitting behind Yogi.

Waite Hoyt: Hall of Fame pitcher for the Yanks in the 20s

Bobby Murcer: He could fit in as a Fan Favorite, only he really wouldn't break the top 5 in either the 70s, where he played before the title teams, or the 80s.

Mizzougrad96 · Jul 30, 2011

Where would Winfield go?

MankyJimy · Jul 30, 2011

Mizzougrad96 said:

Realistically, where should Jeter rank among all-time Yankee players?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio would all be miles and miles ahead of him.
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I think you have to take into account that the quality of play has improved since then (integration, better training/nutrition, etc). If Jeter in his prime was transported back to Yankee Stadium in the 1920s, he might not hit 60 homers but he'd probably be a Rogers Hornsby - a power hitter with multiple .400 seasons.

outofplace · Jul 30, 2011

MankyJimy said:

Mizzougrad96 said:

Realistically, where should Jeter rank among all-time Yankee players?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio would all be miles and miles ahead of him.
Click to expand...

I think you have to take into account that the quality of play has improved since then (integration, better training/nutrition, etc). If Jeter in his prime was transported back to Yankee Stadium in the 1920s, he might not hit 60 homers but he'd probably be a Rogers Hornsby - a power hitter with multiple .400 seasons.
Click to expand...

Please, for once in a Jeter-related discussion, get off your knees.

Ruth dominated his era. Gehric, Mantle and DiMaggio were also dominant players in their era. Jeter cannot make that claim. He was great, but not dominant, player on some great teams.

heyabbott · Jul 30, 2011

MankyJimy said:

Mizzougrad96 said:

Realistically, where should Jeter rank among all-time Yankee players?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio would all be miles and miles ahead of him.
Click to expand...

I think you have to take into account that the quality of play has improved since then (integration, better training/nutrition, etc). If Jeter in his prime was transported back to Yankee Stadium in the 1920s, he might not hit 60 homers but he'd probably be a Rogers Hornsby - a power hitter with multiple .400 seasons.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that be true of almost any modern day all star? And if Babe Ruth had access to Barry Bond's advantages, not the PEDs, he'd have hit 914 HRs just by extending his career. Ruth might have been the first player to win 300 games and hit 500 HRs

Mizzougrad96 · Jul 30, 2011

If he had played in the 1920s, Kevin Maas would have been like Lou Gehrig.

heyabbott · Jul 30, 2011

Mizzougrad96 said:

If he had played in the 1920s, Kevin Maas would have been like Lou Gehrig.
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If OJ Simpson were alive and in London in 1888, he would have been Orenthal the Ripper

MankyJimy · Jul 30, 2011

outofplace said:

MankyJimy said:

Mizzougrad96 said:

Realistically, where should Jeter rank among all-time Yankee players?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio would all be miles and miles ahead of him.
Click to expand...

I think you have to take into account that the quality of play has improved since then (integration, better training/nutrition, etc). If Jeter in his prime was transported back to Yankee Stadium in the 1920s, he might not hit 60 homers but he'd probably be a Rogers Hornsby - a power hitter with multiple .400 seasons.
Click to expand...

Please, for once in a Jeter-related discussion, get off your knees.

Ruth dominated his era. Gehric, Mantle and DiMaggio were also dominant players in their era. Jeter cannot make that claim. He was great, but not dominant, player on some great teams.
Click to expand...

I fully understand that Jeter hasn't dominated his generation of players to the extent of the 4 Yankees greats you mentioned. I probably should have added that I believe there are a couple dozen modern players that if placed in Yankee Stadium in the 20s would have put up Ruthian numbers.

I just wanted to make sure we acknowledge that the level of play has improved...heck, Jeter (with mixed ancestry) wouldn't have even been able to play alongside Ruth and Gehrig, or Dimaggio for much of his career.

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Yankee Fans: Morons

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