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UAW - Game Over!

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by poindexter, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    .

    GM is losing money hand over fist... If you really care about the American labor force, maybe it's time to create something profitable and offer millions of the high-paying jobs you believe everyone is entitled to.

    I'd applaud the effort.

    It cuts both ways. Give businesses unfair advantages in the labor market and we don't have a level playing field. Give unskilled workers an unfair advantages--government-sanctioned monopolies that drive out other workers and artificially boost wages for the members of the club--and it creates an unfair playing field skewed the other way.

    Too bad you can't stop others from acting competitively and handing GM its lunch--without adopting the 1970s Eastern European model of economic management.

    This is a relic story, though. Unions outside the public sector--which doesn't have to worry about competition and can be inefficient without scrutiny--have been dead for more than 20 years. People caught onto the fact that they cost them jobs a long time ago.

    The sad thing is that some people will never understand that well-intentioned as their ideas are, they create bigger problems for everyone with some of the things they advocate. I'll never understand why they refuse to learn from experience, instead of denying and rewriting history.
     
  2. jgmacg

    jgmacg Guest

    Any market economy works best when the interests of capital and labor intersect; or are at least held in equilibrium by the tension between the two.

    To blame the failure of any American industry solely on organized labor is as wrong as blaming it solely on management. Corporations and unions are both human institutions, so both suffer the same tendency to greed and vanity and inertia and bloat.

    The "market" isn't some theoretical vacuum. It's not sterile. It's not a laboratory. The "market" is the place where people and their interests - need and want and appetite and ambition - collide.

    Thus, if it's sensible for capital to seek to maximize the return on its investment, how is it not equally sensible for the work force to seek to maximize the return on its labor?
     
  3. Pastor

    Pastor Active Member

    Complete ahistorical nonsense

    The auto industry destroyed itself. The management is what really killed it. What people don’t often realize is that when the industry was booming, management did what good management does: pays higher money. The problem was that they wasted a lot of money as well.

    Their engineering departments were filled with unqualified individuals being paid oodles of money. These engineers cared more about reaching top speeds than about producing long running goods. It was the same theory as toaster ovens… build it cheap so that it will be replaced soon. When Japanese cars came into the country and were able to last longer, these engineers needed the federal government to bail them out.

    In the 80’s and 90’s the engineers, went to work developing SUVs and trucks. Gas prices spiked and people again turned to the Japanese manufacturers which produced more efficient vehicles.

    You can’t solely blame those on the assembly line for putting together a product that is poorly designed. By all measure the American auto engineers had ample time, opportunity and equipment (some of the absolute best at the time) to design and create superior technology. Instead they produced the Ford Focus and the Geo Metro. With everything the auto industry had, to blame it on the little guy is about as absurd an idea as it gets.
     
  4. Captain_Kirk

    Captain_Kirk Well-Known Member

    The problem is the UAW always sought to get a better than maximum return for labor. They demanded a better deal than a solid, economical equation would have projected. They got great gains for the short term, but those wins cost them and their members viability long term.

    And in terms of where to lay the blame for the American auto industry? All the participants deserve their share: management, unions, workers. Everyone contributed to delivering inferior products compared to their foreign competition.
     
  5. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    jg, absolutely agree with the first part of your post. And in a way, agree with the second part of your post.

    I've never said anywhere that it isn't sensible for workers to try to negotiate the best terms they can for their employment. We all do that, don't we? You don't take a $25,000 salary if you can negotiate a $30,000 salary.

    Unions are predicated on collective bargaining for higher wages. In order to bargain effectively, though, you need some sort of leverage... or you need some kind of muscle (in the case of American unions, government protection) giving you that leverage artificially. Without leverage, you can try to negotiate that $30,000 salary all you want, but you are not going to get it if the market really dictates that what you do is worth $25,000.

    Most unions have represented largely unskilled workforces that had little leverage. Unions may have made a difference in working conditions a long time ago, but past a certain point they had nothing to bargain with without some kind of unfair advantage giving them leverage. Or else a company like GM would walk outside and hire one of the thousands of non-union members eager for a job and willing to work for a lower market-based wage (this GM story is all about wages and the higher operating expenses GM has been saddled with for decades and what it has done to the company, which has had to deal with competition not saddled by those higher costs).

    Unions managed to boost wages by creating leverage in two ways: 1) creating a monopoly that doesn't allow a competitive labor marketplace (limiting the number of jobs, shutting out workers who can't get into the "club," who are hurt by the below-market wages they earn to balance the inflated wages the union garners... and eventually making operating costs so high for the companies they worked for that they got their clocks cleaned by non-unionized companies), and 2) getting government protection that allows you to keep that monopoly.

    I don't blame people for trying to boost their salaries using that tact. It's just that there were zillions of people like me decades ago, and in the subsequent decades, pointing out how short-sighted that was and what the ultimate consequences would be. It's destroyed whole companies that couldn't compete and it's hurt workers in the aggregate--both in the short-term and long-term--because while boosting wages of a select few, it did it at the expense of workers outside the union (very often minorities) and it ultimately cost the union workers their higher-paying jobs when their jobs were exported elsewhere.

    What boggles me, is that we have seen it all play out exactly as you would predict, and there are STILL people don't get it. What remnants survive of unions now try to protect their monopoly by fighting free trade that might erode their power even further. I agree with the first part of your post. In order to allow equilibrium, you don't artificially block trade or competition giving capital OR labor an unfair advantage.
     
  6. Simon_Cowbell

    Simon_Cowbell Active Member

    Huh?

    My paper has offered two weeks pay per year with the company, capped at a year paid.

    I have heard that there are others with even better buyouts, including one that offers up to two years paid.
     
  7. Simon_Cowbell

    Simon_Cowbell Active Member

    I love members of the lucky sperm club who prattle on like this about what people in SHIT circumstance should be doing.
     
  8. Simon_Cowbell

    Simon_Cowbell Active Member

    A few years ago....?

    LOL

    This has been a foregone conclusion for 20 years.
     
  9. dooley_womack1

    dooley_womack1 Well-Known Member

    I shudder to think of the "free trade" going on there. :eek:
     
  10. It's like calling the Native Americans whiners because they complained when the government gave them blankets infested with small pox. Hey, at least you're not cold!
     
  11. Ben_Hecht

    Ben_Hecht Active Member


    Get no argument from me, there.

    My main point was to illustrate how slowly word filtered out to some of the provinces . . .
     
  12. jgmacg

    jgmacg Guest

    Believe me, Big, I acknowledge and understand the role that unions have played in the decline of US industry. But as much responsibility as they bear, so to do the captains of industry who run those companies for whom they labor, and the governments who mediate between the two.

    I've held union cards in half a dozen businesses since I came of age long ago. And unions - like corporations or governments - are only as good as the people who make them up.
     
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