Top 20 pitchers of all time?

Since a few people didn't answer my question in the Greatest Pitcheer of all time thread, I decided to create a new thread. Rank your top twenty pitchers of all time. Rank from 1-20. Negro League pitchers are allowed.

Here is my list.

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Cy Young
4. Lefty Grove
5. Pete Alexander
6. Christy Mathewson
7. Tom Seaver
8. Roger Clemens
9. Randy Johnson
10. Warren Spahn
11. Satchel Paige
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Bob Feller
14. Bob Gibson
15. Kid Nichols
16. Steve Carlton
17. Smokey Joe Williams
18. Carl Hubbell
19. Juan Marichal
20. Three Fingers Brown

 

No Koufax and no Ryan equals a complete failure of a Top 20 list.

 

Sandy Koufax is my number 21, and I can easily name 8-10 better pitchers than Nolan Ryan. Ryan is overrated by the average baseball fan.

 

I have to agree with Stoney on Koufax, but not Ryan. I can certainly see the argument for including Ryan, but there is also a good one for leaving him off, starting with a 3.19 career ERA that is not even close to the top 200 all time.

 

You know who else is overrated? Dead ball era pitchers who amassed gaudy statistics over a century ago during an era when only about 3 runs were scored per game and no black or latino players were allowed to participate.

 

Just because you haven't seen them play doesn't mean they're overrated. They still had some great competetion, yes they didn't face black/latino players, but they faced some great players.

I may only be assuming here, but have you actually studied players from the Dead Ball era? If you did, then you'd probably realise that they're better than you actually believe.

PS: Still waiting on your list.

 

It took a long, long time for Ryan to figure out how to win baseball
games on a consistent basis, and I'm also not compelled to give
him an automatic pass in the juice department.

 

And you'll keep waiting. It's a silly exercise. I have no intelligent basis for ranking players from the distant past other than some statistics amassed during an era when the game was very different, average scores were much lower and nobody with dark skin or a spanish accent was allowed to play.

None of us have the slightest clue how those guys actually compare to modern era players, trying to compare is essentially just guessing.

 

Then why did you comment saying that my list is a major fail since I don't have Koufax or Ryan? Your not making a lot sense here. You say that you have no intelligent basis for ranking baseball players, but you still felt the need to state that my list is a fail. That's pretty rediculous if you ask me.

Anyway, I know there's a few members here that can come up with a good list(Shoeless and Baron being two of them) so hopefully I can get some good contribution to this thread and not replies like Stoney's(no offense)

 

If you are going to mix up dead-ball pitchers and modern pitchers, you might as well throw in some cricket bowlers. They are just as similar.

 

Where the hell is Van Lingle Mungo?

 

Enlighten me, how are they semilar?