The SJ.com Baseball Hall of Fame

Skimming other's ballots again. Mizzou, I agree with most of yours. I'm on the fence with Morris (leaning against) and Vizquel (leaning for). Vizquel is damn close to Ozzie Smith defensively and probably a better hitter.

Also, add Luis Tiant to the list. A quick comparison between three pitchers.

Tiant 229-172 3.30 ERA, 2,416 K; Postseason: 3-0, 2.86 ERA; (4-time 20-game winner)

Catfish Hunter (who's in the Hall): 224-166 3.26 ERA 2,012 K; Post: 9-6, 3.26 ERA; (5-time 20-game winner)

Schilling: 216-146, 3.46 ERA 3,116 K; Post 11-2; 2.23 ERA (3-time 20-game winner).

Of course, Schill is from a different era. I'm on the fence with him (leaning for). Tiant and Hunter were contemporaries. And in the year of hte pitcher (1968), Tiant was 21-9 with a 1.60 ERA; Hunter was 13-13 with a 3.30 ERA.

 

Can you put Vizquel in and not Dave Concepcion?

 

One of my favorite baseball writers said voting for the HOF is easy because if you have to think for more than a few seconds if someone is worthy, they're not...

I've always liked that thinking. Morris is one of the cases where I didn't follow that. My initial reaction is yes, but then you look at his stats and it's a no.

 

The ones on there I took pause with are:

Juan Gonzalez - Two MVPs, four top 5 MVP finishes and man was one of the most dominant players of the 1990s. I still say no.

Barry Larkin - My initial reaction is no, but his teammates loved him, was a great fielder, a good batter and a good team leader. I wouldn't vote for him, but I think most will.

Fred McGriff - I'm a bigger McGriff fan than most. Eight seasons with more than 100 RBI, 493 HR and 1,550 RBI.

Larry Walker - For a few years, I thought he was one of the best in the game, but he played at Coors, was injured a lot, and still didn't even hit any of the milestone numbers.

 

Forgot about Concepcion. A case can be made for him too. I know there are some writers who support him. His and Vizquel's hitting stats are close. And Ozzie's for that matter. Vizquel has a career BA of .273, Concepcion .266 and Ozzie .262. Games played, at-bats, runs scored, RBIs and SB all seem to be in the same ballpark. I think Vizquel was better defensively than Concepcion. I'd support both ahead of Tramell.

 

I think both Vizquel and Concepcion are better than Larkin and Larkin is going to get in.

 

You're probably right.

 

You can't just say Viquel deserves to be in just by comparing his numbers to Ozzie Smith's, though he both were great defensive shortstops. Vizquel is not nearly as good of a candidate as Smith was.

Teams have come to expect more and more of their shortstops offensively. That was already happening in Smith's career, but it became more pronounced in Vizquel's prime.

Was Omar Vizquel ever considered the top shortstop in the American League (where he spent most of his prime seasons)? Ozzie Smith was higher in the shortstop hierarchy during most of his playing days. You have to compare these guys to their contemporaries as well as one another.

Smith probably made a few more All-Star games than he should have, but that does not account for the huge difference in that category. He made it 15 times to only three for Vizquel. He also won more Gold Glloves, 13-11. Vizquel may be a better hitter, though not by much, but Smith was a much better base-stealer. Ozzie Smith is 21st all-time in baseball history with 580 steals. Vizquel is 77th

, with 580 in his career to 384 for Vizquel.

Smith also played for a World Series championship team. Vizquel has not.

 

Larkin was a MUCH better hitter than Vizquel, plus he has an MVP and a World Series championship on his resume. Obviously, he wasn't on Vizquel's level defensively, but he was very good in the field as well.

 

Not sure how you put Concepcion in over Trammell (pretty much the same player as Larkin).

Anyway, my list (didn't try to narrow it down since it spans so many eras). Also -- lifetime bans and those associated with the steroids scandal should get a notation on their plaque but not be kept out.

Roberto Alomar
Craig Biggio
Bert Blyleven
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Andre Dawson
Tom Glavine
Ken Griffey Jr.
Vladimir Guerrero -- on the fence. he'd need to keep up production another few years
Rickey Henderson
Trevor Hoffman
Shoeless Joe Jackson
Derek Jeter
Randy Johnson
Barry Larkin
Greg Maddux
Pedro Martinez
Mark McGwire
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Jim Rice
Mariano Rivera
Alex Rodriguez
Pudge Rodriguez
Pete Rose
Gary Sheffield
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas
Jim Thome
Alan Trammell

Additions not on list:
Luis Tiant
Lou Whitaker

Coulda-shoulda-woulda:
Nomaaaaaaaaaaah
Darryl Strawberry
Doc Gooden
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy

 

Wow. Vizquel ''only'' won 11 Gold Gloves.

The Vizquel-Larkin comparison is that typical offense vs. defense debate. I usually favor the hitters because IMHO a great hitter/average fielder can impact a game more than an average hitter/great fielder. Having said that, great fielders deserve respect too. Whether or not more was expected offensively from SS during Vizquel's time is moot. Vizquel was the premier defensive SS (11 Gold Gloves) during his career. That he didn't make more All-Stars is because there were a lot better offensive SS in the AL during his time. Vizquel would have been a defensive marvel in any era.

I'm not sure what their teams winning a World Series has anything to do with Hall of Fame worthiness. Vizquell played in two World Series. His teams just happened to get beat.

If Ozzie played in the AL during Vizquel's time when there was Jeter, A-Rod and Nomar putting up great offensive numbers, he wouldn't have made as many All-Star Games either. That wouldn't have made him any less of a player. He still would have been a great player and a HOF'er in my book because of his defense, the same case I'm making for Omar. (Besides, Omar was always a great interview.;D)

 

I would put Concepcion in over Ozzie Smith.

I know Ozzie is beloved, but he may be the most overrated player of my lifetime.