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The best movie of the year... I still can't believe it...

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by Mizzougrad96, Jun 15, 2007.

  1. JayFarrar

    JayFarrar Well-Known Member

    I enjoy the argument that says you can't have innovations with healthcare if you change the system, while it ignores the reality that healthcare innovations come mostly from government funded research. So it really wouldn't matter what was done with insurance.
    The thing that big pharm innovates are drugs for hair growth or a new and improved viagra.
    As far as Canada goes, I'll take the word of the Canadians on here who say while it isn't perfect, it is still better than America's.
    And the Corps in New Orleans was doing fine until its budget was cut to fund the war in Iraq. While the interstate system has contributed to sprawl, it has also meant the smooth flow of commerce in the United States. Not one single project has meant more to everyday Americans than the interstate system. How do you think those oranges got to the grocery store?
  2. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    JR, part of what you say is untrue. Part isn't intelligent discourse (the Ayn Rand idiocy is stupid). But Canada spends 10 to 12 percent of its GDP on health care. The US spends 14 to 16 percent of its GDP on health care. Health care is NOT cheap in Canada. You're just taxed beyond reason for it. It's certainly not universal, unless by "universal" you mean that everyone gets a reduced level of care that is below the best available. You ration--which was my main point. And despite your spirited defense of your system (I am glad it works for you, even if it isn't working for others), I urge anyone to hit Nexis and do a quick boolean search for hundreds of stories documenting the problems and warts--including the horrors of having to go to a Canadian emergency room.. They're not difficult to find.
  3. JayFarrar

    JayFarrar Well-Known Member

    Washington Post says otherwise.

    If you repeat big government is bad over and over again, then actually put idiots in charge, fire the best middle managers so the new idiot boss can put his buddies on the payroll and cut the funding to pay for other adventures. You are going to get bad government.
    My problem with universal health care is that you don't have any idea of how it would work and if it would be resistant to political pressure.
  4. Pastor

    Pastor Active Member

    And yet, Junkie, we continue to trade with China. Our current most threatening enemy is Bin Laden and Pakistan, a supposed friend, is unwilling to help. Oh well. I guess it is easier to revel in history and be mad at people for past actions than to attempt to move forward.

    Ragu, Canada's system does have problems. But, again, you are just dismissing it out of hand. You fail to recognize that there are parts of the system that does work and just toss it all away because of a few horror stories. The reality is that there needs to be analysis and a serious amount of correction here so that we can provide the best care to our citizens. Right now, that isn't close to happening.
  5. Pastor

    Pastor Active Member

    When has China threatened us? Well, being as they were the army we were fighting in Korea and that they are the ones pulling a lot of the strings in terms of N.Korea, I would say, to this day.

    Also, nobody has said that Bin laden is to be ignored. Some have said that a very recent video isn't as big of a threat, but that doesn't translate into the word "ignored" unless you plugging it into Google, having it translate from English to French to Spanish to German to Italian to Russian to Chinese to Portuguese and then back to English again.

    The point still remains. Your up in arms frustration over Cuba, a country that is no longer a real threat to us, seems far too over the top when you count the number of countries we actually do business with.
  6. HC

    HC Well-Known Member

    All I know is that I have lived at or below the poverty line for a decent portion of my adult life (the consumate starving artist) but I have never once been concerned that a serious illness or accident would destroy me financially. My gall bladder story told earlier would have driven me to bankruptcy if I were in the US. How many people in the US don't have health insurance provided by their employers? How many horror stories do you hear about people driven into bankruptcy by the medical expenses of a family member with cancer?

    Yes, I sometimes have to wait in line in the Emergency room. So what? That happens everywhere - it's called triage. Health care should be a basic human right.
  7. duckncover

    duckncover Member

    The BIG difference? Wait for it . . .


    So we spend MORE on healthcare and still have 45 million without any. Wow, great argument.
  8. HeinekenMan

    HeinekenMan Active Member

    This is one of the best threads we've had. Glad to see that people are keeping it fairly civilized. I've only read bits and pieces, but I'd love to read through it all and develop my own thoughts on the subject before watching the film.

    Thanks to everyone for their contributions.
  9. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    I'm not sure what "the argument" you are mocking is. The only argument I've made is that the Canadian single-payer government monopoly is not any sort of medical system paradise. I can point out the flaws in the Canadian system without it being an endorsement of the tings that are wrong in the U.S. I wish more people on here could read what I am saying that way, rather than being so threatened by someone pointing out what are easy-to-see realities. Just because I shit on the idea that Canada does a great job doesn't mean I am saying the U.S. does a great job. The two are mutually exclusive.

    I am also pointing out the reality that medical resources are scarce and a universal plan that gives everyone quality care is an impossibility. If you want universality, be prepared to ration, which means queues and denial of coverage on certain things. That is a reality in Canada, and it's a reality in the U.S.

    HC, I am glad you personally are happy with the Canadian system. My point was that you and JR notwithstanding, there is a lot of dissatisfaction from Canadians with the system you have--there aren't enough health care providers (this is what happens, JR... without the incentives, the best minds choose other careers), there are long queues for necessary treatments and innovative, new treatments you can get elsewhere are excluded. People have access to low-cost services like a general practitioner office visit, but they have to jump through hoops for vital services including many types of diagnostics, surgeries and cancer cares. The wait times are months, and often years. That is kind of backward-ass. Rationally, you should want to pool everyone's risk of the expensive treatments, but leave ordinary, low-cost interventions to individuals. It's paying for chemotherapy that bankrupts people, not preventative doctor visits.

    Canadian seem to value fairness and equality more than people do in many places. If you ask a Canadian "should health care be universal and open to all" the answer is an overwhelming yes--which is how you ended up with what you have. But ask them about the current system, and more than 2/3 want it changed. Ask them if they are willing to pay more than they're already paying and the numbers decrease. It's just kind of telling, even if it is predictable.

    It's also a myth that Canada has somehow managed to control health care costs. Your system has borrowed heavily (making it unsustainable--costs have risen dramatically in the last decade, and much of what you pay is going toward interest payments now; your system needs to ration more and more to make it work, which is why you are on a collision course with change) and it rations. It is that simple. Health services are free at the point of consumption, but scarce medical resources are rationed and there are long waits for the big things. That is fine if you are healthy person (although being a healthy person in the U.S. isn't a bad thing either). It sucks if you need a hip replacement or cancer treatment or even an MRI.
  10. JR

    JR Well-Known Member


    Did I say Canada was a medical paradise? No.

    Did I ever say there aren't any problems? No.

    There is categorically not a "lot of dissatisfaction" with our health care system--grumbling, perhaps, but we're Canadians. That's what we do. But, all things being equal, I suspect there's far less dissatisfaction here than down there, because you've turned health care into a commodity, rather than a basic human right.

    If you took a poll and asked 1,000 Canadians whether they'd rather have an open healthcare system like ours versus a corporate run system like yours, 999 would go with ours.

    And you keep harping about long waits--once again, a myth that's repeated over and over again by the large American insurance companies. Yes, you occasionally have to wait for certain procedures but not life threatening ones and for every selective anecdote about "long waits" I can came up with 100 that negate them.

    You need to find new material because to claim that our system is "unsustainable" that "2/3 of Canadians want it changed" , that we "have to jump through hoops for vital services" and "scarce medical resources are rationed" is, quite simply, bullshit. It's HMO propaganda which you keep throwing out without ANY supporting evidence--other than that link you posted originally--which was silly twaddle.

    You keep painting a picture that our healthcare system is some sort of second rate, third world bureaucratic hellhole.

    Funny thing though: the WHO consistently places our system (and pretty much every Western democracy's) above yours in terms of quality and accessibility.

    So, you can keep prattling on about the deficiencies of our system when you should really be examining yours.

    I'd suggest you join the civilized world and come up with a system that doesn't exclude 45,000,000 people because they can't afford it.
  11. Twoback

    Twoback Active Member

    I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's exactly what Moore is doing to the U.S. in "Sicko.'
  12. Mighty_Wingman

    Mighty_Wingman Active Member

    A) That's got to be a little high.

    B) I'd be interested to see what the results would be in the opposite poll.
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