Should W-L for pitchers just be phased out entirely?

Yeah, but that happened to be because MLB removed it as an official stat.

 

Here is a piece from last year in which a writer makes the same case I am advocating, that wins (and losses) should no longer be used to evaluate pitchers:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/lets-get-rid-of-pitching-wins/

I think the writer here mucks it up a little bit with some of the advanced sabermetric tables he marshals as evidence for his stance. This doesn't need to be a sabemetric argument, and it really isn't one. Even traditionalists, even Hawk Harrelson, even Joe Morgan, understand the value of ERA in evaluating pitchers. And they understand that the more innings a pitcher logs, the more reliable the ERA is as a measure of a pitcher's performance. And, finally, they understand that innings pitched have value independent of ERA - primarily, it saves the bullpen.

In my vision, the scoreboard or broadcast now flashes something like the following up as the starting pitcher's primary stat line:

GS: 25
IP: 172 1/3 (6.89/GS)
ERA: 2.82

That's just so elegant and informative, it is tough for me to imagine the argument against it.

I have defended RBIs - not as a measure of player performance, but as a quickie narrative on how the season has gone - on the ground that they give the observer an idea of what has actually happened as a result of the player's performance. Something LTL brings up would do the same for pitchers - list, somehow, his team's record in his starts. But list it on the fourth line, or separated somehow to indicate that you aren't using it to evaluate the pitcher.

Somehow or another, in fairness to viewers and readers, pitcher performance has to be decoupled from the traditional wins and losses statistic. I have to imagine some forward-thinking team will do it eventually. Maybe Tampa Bay? Maybe Oakland? My guess it will be a lot like a newspaper or Web site redesign: A lot of complaints at first, followed by widespread acceptance as the new, more useful presentation starts to feel intuitive. Most importantly, baseball fans will be better-informed.

 

Here is the actual statistical comparison used in that Hardball Times piece:

IP/Start K/BB RA9 FIP xFIP SIERA FRA
Pitcher A 7.2 5.00 2.74 2.83 3.52 3.60 3.27
Pitcher B 7.0 6.46 3.65 3.27 3.13 3.08 3.66


You think that's going to lead to greater understanding and enjoyment of the game, do ya?

 

Of course not.

 

You have to ask yourself what W-L is ***hurting***. It has been a part of the game for 100-plus years. People like it. And it has always been seen as secondary (at least as long as I've been watching, anyway).

Watch the A's sometime. For all the Viva La Revolucion! talk, their stat presentation on game telecasts doesn't look a whole lot different than it did in 1990. They've added some things to the picture, but they haven't taken anything away.

 

Oh, LTL, think of the children!

 

It is hurting people's understanding of the game. Jim Leyland, at the All-Star Game, justified the selection of Chris Tillman over Hideki Kuroda on Tillman's 11-3 record. That despite the fact that Kuroda's ERA was 1.30 higher than Tillman's, with seven more innings pitched.

And it's not seen as secondary. It is always listed first, i.e., 5-13, 3.65. It's primary.

 

Do you have anything constructive to add?

You argue like a sixth-grader, and always have. At least LTL makes some points: (1) Consumers like it; (2) It tells us something about that pitcher's run support, so long as we assume the consumer thinks about it that way.

What point have you made, other than to make fun of someone? Not just on this thread, but ever? In the history of this board? In the history of your life?

 

I do hope Hiroki Kuroda survives the slight.

I just don't understand the problem. Most people see the 3.65 and that mitigates the 5-13. And if someone wants to seize on the 5-13 ... so freaking what?

There are actually cases -- rare but they do happen -- where W-L might be a better barometer of where a guy is. ERA says Scherzer is the sixth-best pitcher in the AL, ERA+ says he is fifth, W-L says he is first. I think he's closer to first than he is to fifth or sixth.

 

Helps also that Scherzer is No.1 in MLB in run support (6 a game) and Hernandez is 39th in the AL (4.1).

 

But I'm not saying we use ERA exclusively. Look at my graphic: GS, IP (IP/GS), ERA.

 

All good. Those are always on the screen.

I don't know why you're obsessing over the fact that W-L is too. If it's beneath your intelligence, just dismiss it entirely.