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Should the victims of bullying be punished?

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Ilmago, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    I should clarify. One of the reasons that I come to this site is that for a message board the posts are very well thought out and the positions explained. I am not a writer by trade and can't always give nuance that I am thinking to my writing.

    LTL basically summed up what my thoughts are.

    I am not trying to turn my daughter into a thug or mini UFC'er. I just want her to have the confidence and ability to be able to stand up to a bully if it happens.

    Standing up to, or bullying a bully is the most effective way to make it stop. If I want her to learn this I also want to arm her with the proper way to stand up to the bully.

    She might as well learn the most effective way to throw a punch and hopefully she never has to use it.

    We have friends who are teachers and principals and my wife also works on the HR side in school board administration.

    The dysfunction and inconsistencies in execution of policies do not leave me with confidence that a bullying situation would be rectified quickly or correctly.

    Better that she is equipped to solve her problems effectively if needed.
     
  2. shockey

    shockey Active Member

    listen, i understand it's up to every parent to determine how they want their child to handle it if they are bullied. that said, my questions for whoever is training their 3-year-old how to most effectively use his/her fists to put an end to the bullying -- and others who support this tact -- are these:

    WHERE AND HOW DOES IT END? sure, the classic tale is of the big bully who backs down when he's hit back. but how often is that simply a lovely fairy tale with a happy ending? isn't the end game in this scenario just as often or likely to result in the bully kicking the crap out of your child instead of the desired result?

    i personally favor the parental/school intervention dynamic and agree with those who contend the victim is not the one who needs to be removed from proximity of the bully, it must be vice-versa. the bully is the one who must pay the price and deal with the consequences in hopes that the lesson is learned.

    i'd also LOVE to see the bully and his/her parents somehow ordered to undergo counseling. 'cause the amateur psycholologist in me firmly believes the bully's parents/home life is at the root of the problem.
     
  3. Rhody31

    Rhody31 Well-Known Member

    I'm on board with Chet.
    My parents taught me violence was never the way to fix things. When I got "bullied" I ratted the tormentor out because that was the thing to do. I never was in physical altercations because I was always the biggest kid, so if there was a physical thing possible, my mother told me "grab the person, throw them into a wall and tell them to knock it off."
    I think it happened like twice, but once it did the bullying stopped.
     
  4. 93Devil

    93Devil Well-Known Member

    Chet, I agree with what you are doing. You just don't want to send a mixed message to your kid that hitting back is always the best answer. If they are cornered, then they should hit.

    But a school really should be a safe place and they should never need to defend themselves there.
     
  5. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    @ shockey

    Agree that the parents are normally the root cause of the kid being a bully and that in an ideal world there would be fast intervention for all parties involved however I do not think that is how the real world works.

    The extrapolation of the "fairy tale" scenario is a bit out there in terms of "where does it end". I would rather my child got beat up defending themselves than sit and take the bullying.

    Again, ideally there is school/parental intervention however I would rather my child have some skills than just taking it. The ability to punch is also a confidence builder, not just a physical tool.

    On a personal note I would assume that you would have preferred that your older boys looked after the younger ones if it ever came down to a bullying situation.
     
  6. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    @ 93Devil

    Completely agree. I am not teaching my child to go around and slug her way through problems. I am teaching that her first response is to hit back harder and then report. I do not want her to turn the other cheek.

    Schools should be safe place where this is not necessary but unfortunately that is not always the reality.
     
  7. shockey

    shockey Active Member

    fortunately, the 'bullying' issue never raised its ugly head with any of our guys. and sure, i'd imagine that IF it ever arose a big brother being near would be of help.

    i am certainly not anti-the plusses of youngsters learning the art of self-defense and surely understand the character-building assets it helps to develop.

    hey, it's different strokes for different parents. all i'm saying is that encouraging kids to defend themselves against any 'bullies' who have targeted them is all well and good but could have unintended consequences.

    again, i'm grateful/lucky it has never an issue for any of our 'stooges.' and i may well be a 'wimp,' having never been in any sort of physical altercation myself. i always managed to talk my way out of any pickle/confrontation.

    i do know one thing for sure: if one of my boys had ever been bullied -- we're not talking about brief scuffles with friends, right? -- i would absolutely make sure every other possible remedy had been given a try before advising them to unleash the fists of fury.

    'cause if the count-move would turn out to be an ass-kicking from said bully, i'd never forgive myself.

    but, hey, that's just me...
     
  8. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    Here's the thing with self-defense. One of the worst parts of being bullied is the fear. Many young bullies plant the idea in the victim's head that they are going to corner them and beat them up at some point. I think self-defense gives a kid a piece of mind that if it does come to that, he'll be okay, and thus that takes away the bully's weapon of fear.
     
  9. Iron_chet

    Iron_chet Well-Known Member

    @shockey

    I appreciate the conversation. I will take the unintended consequences of action vs the consequences of being bullied, both short term and long term.

    I think the physical side of being bullied (except in the most extreme cases) pale in comparison to the mental - the apprehension, fear, etc.

    Rick makes the point better than I could. The psychological side of knowing you are not defenseless is invaluable.
     
  10. qtlaw

    qtlaw Well-Known Member

    My oldest is 11 and he's always been the sweetest kid, never an unkind word about anyone, always smiling, happy to do whatever the teacher asks.

    Well this year, he moves to middle school (6-8) and one of his friends, someone who has come over to our house for sleepovers, birthday parties started grabbing my boy in the hallway as a "joke" thinking it was funny. In addition, recently someone shoved my boy down during a game and told he was a weakling.

    My boy has been conditioned to think that the world is a safe, secure place where people follow rules and should follow the rules. If people don't, the teachers/coaches/parents will correct the situation.

    I have now had to tell my boy that its time for him to make a stand. He cannot wait for the administration/teachers/parents to make this problem go away. He has to send a message that this is unacceptable and that he's not going to simply accept bullying without fighting back. Sadly, its reality. Not everyone is going to follow the rules and you cannot wait for someone else to solve it for you. Turning the other cheek is going to just result in others picking on you. From my own personal experience, I used to always be the smallest guy and finally in 5th grade I said I'd had enough and had to fight back. One bloody lip later, it was over. I'm hoping that's what happens for my boy because it breaks my heart to think he's getting bullied. But I think he's got to send the message otherwise he'll always be perceived as the easy mark. (Even before this started, he and his brother started Tae Kwon Do and its done wonders for their self-confidence and physical being.)
     
  11. Baron Scicluna

    Baron Scicluna Well-Known Member

    One issue that I have with the whole, "Teach the kid to fight back" method as a first resort, is, sometimes it doesn't work. Then where is the victim at?

    It's all great to tell a kid that's being bullied to punch the bully in the nose. Only problem is, what if the bully blocks the punch, or is so big, he can take the victim's punch and laugh in his face? Then the bully sees the kid is weak, and makes it open season on him.

    The thing to do is: 1. Notify the school constantly. Document each phone call and meeting. 2. Hand your kid a tape recorder, and tell him to keep it in his pocket. When the kid is being bullied, tell him to turn on the tape. This is evidence to use against both the school, and the bully's parents (They won't pull the 'Not my little angel' crap if they hear their kid on a tape). And 3. Like others said earlier, make it feel OK for the child to defend themselves.

    When my Asperger's son was in regular school, he was constantly getting taunted on the playground. He'd react by slugging the bully. We kept trying to teach him to walk away and tell the teacher, but, due to his Asperger's, he really didn't understand. Plus, there weren't many adults on the playground (maybe 2 for 60 kids), and they tended to look the other way.

    After the fifth or sixth time of the principal calling us up to complain about our son's hitting. I told her that he was being bullied. Her response was, "Well, everyone gets teased from time to time." My response was, "He has Asperger's, he doesn't know to walk away, and if they're teasing him, maybe if they get slugged a few times, they'll stop." She wasn't amused.
     
  12. RickStain

    RickStain Well-Known Member

    Not to pick on you Baron, but that's exactly why these issues aren't as simple as they seem.

    You've got a kid who is getting bullied. Someone else has a kid who just got punched by a kid whose parent thinks it is okay that he escalated from verbal taunting to physical violence.

    There are two sides to a lot of bullying stories.
     
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