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Senior hockey player dies after on-ice fight

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Double J, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. Pete Incaviglia

    Pete Incaviglia Active Member

    There is a two-minute penalty for high sticking.

    There is a five-minute penalty for fighting.

    Is one part of the game and the other not?
     
  2. JR

    JR Well-Known Member

    There are no rules that "allow" fighting anymore than there are rules that encourage highsticking, boarding, tripping, holding spearing or slew footing. They are acknowledged as part of the game and there are penalties for infringement.

    You can debate whether fighting in hockey is good or bad---that's a separate argument---but you cannot debate whether it's part of the game or not.
     
  3. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    OK. But just because something is implicitly encouraged, doesn't make it right or necessary.

    If I were king of hockey, you'd be automatically out of the game and the next one if you took your helmet off.
     
  4. Double J

    Double J Active Member

    Don Sanderson didn't remove his own helmet, from what I understand - it was either pulled or knocked off during the fight.
     
  5. Smash Williams

    Smash Williams Well-Known Member

    Most NHL guys, unless they wear visors, leave their helmets on to fight.

    Ace, as far as context of the game, it's Inky's "reasonable risk" point above. While it's technically illegal, you're allowed to have up to three fights in a game if you're willing to take the consequence of sitting in the box.

    Charging is against the rules, but you wouldn't make the argument that someone who charged was going outside the boundaries of basketball. Same with facemask penalties and horse collars in football. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean its outside of the context of the game. For that argument, I think you'd have to argue that something "outside the context of the game" would warrant immediate ejection.

    This isn't an argument for or against fighting in hockey. Just about what should happened in the aftermath of this incident given how things are now.
     
  6. PeteyPirate

    PeteyPirate Guest

    "It's part of the game" is not a valid argument, unless you argue that any behavior could be excused by that hypothetical reality. Stealing? It's part of the game. Drug dealing? It's part of the game. Outside of the game, in the world we all have to live in, fighting is not considered by the law to be within the acceptable bounds of behavior. That it has made its way into the culture of the sport isn't an excuse. If you willingly enter into fisticuffs and the other guys gets killed, you are accountable whether you meant to kill him or not. It's part of the game called civilized society.

    I'm not judging the guy in a cosmic sense. I'll admit to enjoying a good hockey fight. It doesn't mean he's a bad person because this happened. But he deserves to be judged by the same legal standards as I would be if I had accidentally killed a guy in a fight.
     
  7. Ace

    Ace Well-Known Member

    FDP has my proxy for the rest of this discussion.
     
  8. Pete Incaviglia

    Pete Incaviglia Active Member

    FDP, it's part of the game because there are penalties for it, it's accepted by the players themselves; the ones who are engaging in the fight, and consenting to do so, mind you. Stealing has no rule against it, players don't expect it to happen, it's never happened, therefore the player would be tossed from the game/team/league. And likely charged. End of story.

    If a player fights, he does so having accepting the fact "it's part of the game," and that there are repercussions set forth by the game/team/league.
     
  9. PeteyPirate

    PeteyPirate Guest

    I know it's part of the game. It's not an exemption from the law.
     
  10. Smash Williams

    Smash Williams Well-Known Member

    Also, saying it's against the law doesn't work because a football tackle is against the law. A regular hockey check is against the law (both would be assault). Things happen within the context of sports that would be completely unacceptable on the street. Just because you disapprove of this one doesn't mean there should be charges.

    So FDP - if someone gets killed on a facemask penalty or a charging call (both highly unlikely, I know), they should be charged?
     
  11. writing irish

    writing irish Active Member

    FDP, I'm sympathetic to your viewpoint, but the logic just isn't there with some of your argument.
     
  12. PeteyPirate

    PeteyPirate Guest

    Here's the definition of involuntary manslaughter.

    The hockey fight case meets all three standards.

    The basketball case would be interesting. I don't think it meets the standards, but someone could certainly make the argument.
     
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