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Santo strikes out again! (HOF veterans)

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by Joe Williams, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    Ehh.

    I'm not a fan of equalizing eras. I don't think it can be done, or that it's worth the mathematical effort even if it can, because there are too many non-statistical factors that can't be accounted for. If a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing ... etc. The point is, we'll never know.

    Frankly, I think it's essential to consider a player's era ... because even though I know if 1994 Greg Maddux was pitching in 1968 St. Louis he might have gone 29-4, 1.07 ... it doesn't really mean that much because it's all hypothetical. Greg Maddux was 2 years old in 1968, and he will only pitch in that environment if I put him there on my OOTP game. :D

    It's fun to think about on a late night in a dorm room, but I don't think it should ever be used in a serious baseball discussion.
     
  2. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    You know you want to. ;)
     
  3. spnited

    spnited Active Member

     
  4. Hammer Pants

    Hammer Pants Active Member

     
  5. zimmaniac06

    zimmaniac06 Member

    Yeah, trying to put stats into context by converting them to other eras like the Maddux example is kinda pointless. But stuff like OPS+ and ERA+ is helpful for comparing players taking into account when they played and I think that's valuable. Can't tell if you disagree with that or not.
    And OOTP is by far one of the greatest creations ever. Unfortunately they haven't figured out how to eliminate free agency in the 1940s or else it would be even better
     
  6. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    I do agree. OPS+ and ERA+ are very valuable, because they compare players to their own peers in that league/season/career. I think that's fair game.

    It's the comparing of players from different eras that is so difficult -- which I think makes it all the more important that we don't try to neutralize the fact they played under different conditions. Statistics are one of many factors, never the only factor. It's the reason why Sandy Koufax is a Hall of Famer with 165 career wins and Jim Kaat will never get close with 283 wins.
     
  7. spnited

    spnited Active Member

    OOTP?

    Good god, when does the alphabet soup end?
     
  8. Gold

    Gold Active Member

    ... and the four names above are the problem... Hodges doesn't rank with those players, so you wonder about how much of his success was being in that lineup. It is like the question about Tony Perez, although from looking at stats and seeing people write about him, Hodges was probably a better player. There is also the question about an advantage from playing in a hitters park like Ebbets Field.

    I would be curious to hear how Hodges is a better player than Don Mattingly, who is clearly a Hall of Very Good player. I don't think Hodges's best seasons were better than Mattingly's, although Hodges had more good years than Mattingly.

    The only other thing I would give Hodges some points for is the fact that he might have lost time to World War 2, and I think those players deserve some extra consideration because baseball was, in large part, not major league seasons. Players in the service might have missed out on two or three peak years, and that means somebody who might have had 10 to 12 great seasons would have two or three less. Joe Gordon is probably one of those players who missed some peak years, and they deserve extra consideration.
     
  9. Flying Headbutt

    Flying Headbutt Moderator Staff Member

    Ignorance is cool for some people.
     
  10. sgreenwell

    sgreenwell Well-Known Member

    Buckweaver, I agree with your points about how hard it is to truly equalize between eras, but still, the numbers are there and they're not really in favor of Hodges and Boyer. It's not like any of these guys were playing in the deadball era, so I think EQA and what not are somewhat relevant.

    The evidence for Hodges is so-so to me. His highest MVP finish was 7th. His best OPS+ year (143) was 1952, and he was still fifth that year in the league. If he had played longer, like Rafael Palmerio, and put up those stats for 15 years, then I'd say he was a Hall of Fame guy.
     
  11. Smasher_Sloan

    Smasher_Sloan Active Member

    I'd like to see the Veterans Committee restricted to choosing executives, managers, umpires, etc. and not acting as an appeals court for guys who had 15 years on the ballot.
     
  12. Herbert Anchovy

    Herbert Anchovy Active Member

    A good one, a very addicting one.
     
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