Phil Ivey sitting out WSOP in protest-Running 2011 World Series of Poker thread

What I liked watching was how the players were willing to bet enough of their stacks to rep a good hand, but they had the discipline not to bet too much or to fold when they got caught.

 

I think you're missing what both Rick and I are saying. We're talking about why you don't specifically call. You seem to be using "call" as a synonym for "don't fold."

My point, and I think Rick is also making the point, is that if you are facing any raise, it's almost always best to re-raise or fold, not to call. Calling doesn't give you any more information and sets you up to have tougher decisions later. Folding ends all tough decisions and re-raising puts the tough decisions on the other guy.

 

It's always situational, of course. I said it was Poker 101 and standard, I didn't say you don't adjust to abnormal players.

Trying to balance your attack between the run and pass is football 101, but if your opponent makes the dime prevent his standard defense, then you adjust.

 

But my point is that if you have semi-decent cards pre-flop, you don't have to only raise or fold. What I saw a ton of in the 11 hours was players folding things like KQ or QJ to raises (often by inferior hands). Their options there are not simply raise or fold. Call gets you not only the chance to see the flop, but also the chance to outplay the opponent post-flop if you don't hit.

Another thing I noticed, too, was that the raises pre-flop were rarely very much. In the eight years I've been playing, a standard pre-flop raise has always been three times the big blind. Making the min raise leaves the folks in the blinds pot odds that are too good. Yet I was seeing things like a raise of 1.2 million on a 1 million blind. That's damn near the minimum raise. And yet players were foloding respectable starting hands with great pot odds.

It was so tight. Too tight. Especially considering that down to five or six, the value of those KQ or KJ or QJ hands is even better.

 

This is almost word-for-word the most common misconception of bad/inexperienced poker players. Flat-calling pre-flop and outplaying post-flop is the gimmick play in your playbook. It's the WR end-around reverse. You break it out once or twice for show, but it is absolutely not a staple of your game.

Calling raises with KQ or QJ is a fast way to go broke. Especially the way you are describing it, you are doing it out of position.

 

Agreed. When you play that hand, almost never will you have a made hand after the flop, and you're setting yourself up to have to call a huge bet on a draw. You can't even be confident about top pair in that situation.

 

Regarding the raises, I know that most players in cash games and early in tourneys raise 3X or more, but I've noticed more and more over the past couple years that in tourneys, when the stacks get short and the antes get big, that more and more good players are going to 2.1-2.5X. Seems odd to me, but if you know that everyone at the table is a good player, you don't just call on the pure "odds" of hitting, because you know it's very rare that you're going to be stack someone hitting with a random hand.

Also, as for the old outplaying someone postflop, that is almost impossible to do out of position. So you really need to have position, and in order to call a raise in position, you're looking at a cold-call from the button of an EP raise or else calling a 3-bet from a blind after you've raised. If it's the latter, you've building a pretty big pot, so it's hard to outplay someone with relatively shallow stacks, whch is what you're going to have.

It works fine with 100+ BB stacks, but when you're looking at 40 or less, not so much. At that point, you have to think that you're willing to go all-in on any hand you see a flop.

 

A

First off, position wasn't much a part of the discussion, but when it was a part of the discussion it was blinds being practically min-raised.

Second, statistically you basically hit the flop about 30% of the time. So if you're playing something like QJ or KJ or KQ or even K-10 (two good cards) you're more likely to hit top pair than someone playing A-4 or A-7 or A-8.

Sure, the game changes when you get to the final table, but in most cases in hold-'em poker, aggression beats passivity. Every one who's there at the final table got there by playing aggressively.

Now if you suddenly want to call all aggression as wild or careless play, there's not much point in continuing. But if you've already got $1 million in and it only costs you another $1.2 million to see a flop, giving up that $1 million every damn time just because you don't have A-A or K-K is bad play. And you'll eventually be blinded out or forced to play 7-4 off-suit for your tournament life.

 

I stipulated earlier that about the only time you will see a flop is in just the scenario you mentioned, one raise and you are in the blind.

That said, I don't think flat-calling out of the blinds is a great play with shallow-ish stacks. You can do it just to mix up your play once in a while, but I wouldn't call just because my hand doesn't totally suck. If I have KQ or something in the BB and there's one raise, I'd be more likely to 3-bet, especially since the one open raise could very well be a blind steal with air. Simply calling in that situation just means I'm going to see the flop and most likely miss and then most likely face a bet. Then what?

Again, if someone else has raised, you should usually re-raise if a) you think they are weak or b) you are strong. If neither are true, you should fold. There just aren't a lot of "calls" in there.

 

By the way, if you're talking about being in the blinds, then you're always (except for SB-BB) out of position, so it is absolutely part of the discussion. A big part.

Playing "odds" out of position is a losing play. Even if you hit, you can't manipulate the pot to get the maximum payout if you are OOP.

How many times have you called a raise in the BB with 33 and then flopped your set. You check and the villain bets his AK, and you, Mr. Sneaky, call, trying to trap him. Well, now that he's bet once and been called, he's not putting any more money into the pot, so you're not winning any more. Now, where's the big jackpot you wanted to hit?

Out of position sucks.

 

One more thing, when you are talking about guys who have been playing short-handed together for hours and hours, the cards in your hand are much less relevant.

A guy raises KQ and then someone else re-raises him from the big blind. What he does has much more to do with who his opponent is and how the two of you have been perceiving each other over the past few hours than what your cards are. It's really more of a game of chicken than a game of hand-strength.

"Is he 3-betting me because he has a good hand or because he thinks I'm raising light?"
"If it's the latter, and I 4-bet, will he think it's because I'm strong or because he thinks that I think he thinks I'm raising light?"

So the two guys play chicken until someone folds, and then we move to the next hand.

 

This is actually a fascinating discussion, gentlemen. Feel free to continue.