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Off of soccer, answer this....quantify Bobby Cox's managerial lifeline

Discussion in 'Anything goes' started by bobblehead, Jun 22, 2006.

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  1. BYH

    BYH Active Member

    I disagree. He gets outmanaged almost every postseason. The first one that comes to mind is 2002, when he started Julio Franco in all five games despite the fact the Braves faced four righties and Matt Franco hit .317 against righties that year.

    Bobby Valentine also owned him in 1999. Just ask him WHOAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

    I think Cox is a lousy in-game manager, but he deserves a ton of credit for the hand he displays over a 162-game season. He'll be in the Hall of Fame for that gift.
  2. Double J

    Double J Active Member

    Blue Jays fans are still wondering how much sooner Toronto would have won a World Series had Cox stuck around after 1985.
  3. AgatePage

    AgatePage Active Member

    Blue Jays fans are still wondering how much sooner Toronto would have won a World Series had Cox stuck around after 1985.

    no we aren't. really. not after the premise of things to come by blowing a 3-1 lead in '85.

    Jimmy and Cito did good things. We'll take our two titles and hope to get back in the postseason this year. Man it's nice to have a closer (even if he did almost blow it tonight).
  4. DyePack

    DyePack New Member

    Like much of what dogturdo says, this is a pile of shit.

    Without going back and checking batting orders, I seem to remember a young Andruw Jones and Terry Pendleton hitting low in the order. I can virtually guarantee that when the team had a young, powerful Ryan Klesko along with Chipper Jones and Javy Lopez that there was at least some power out of the No. 6 slot.

    One of the leadoff hitters was Otis Nixon, who ranks as one of the top base-stealers of all-time.

    I can almost guarantee a small amount of research will reveal dogturdo's post to be one of extreme dipshittery.
  5. djc3317

    djc3317 Guest

    no, the dog's right.
    nixon's one of the two decent leadoff guys. I'm assuming the other one he means is furcal. the only thing they've had less consistently than a decent leadoff hitter is a good closer.

    while there were a couple years where they were okay in the 6-8 spots in the lineup, let's not overdo it...even maybe when they had young, powerful klesko, young chipper and young javy (like the only year they won the title), the team was far from being an offensive juggernaut.

    95 lineup
    cf grissom .258 12 HR 42 RBI
    3b jones .265 23 HR 86 RBI
    rf justice .253 24 HR 78 RBI
    1b mcgriff .280 27 HR 93 RBI
    lf klesko .310 23 HR 70 RBI
    c lopez .315 14 HR 51 RBI
    ss blauser .211 12 HR 31 RBI
    2b lemke .253 5 HR 38 RBI

    that doesn't exactly strike fear into your heart. the braves always got it done with pitching. the lineup and the bullpen have almost always been full of holes.
  6. Chi City 81

    Chi City 81 Guest

    There was plenty of speed and power in that lineup. '95 was a truncated season after the strike, otherwise they could have had four guys with 30-plus homers.
  7. djc3317

    djc3317 Guest

    the point was, that was the best they've done. that's the best lineup the braves have trotted out, since that's the one year they won the title. two guys over .280. leadoff man hit .258. three guys at .253 or lower. It was a great team, don't get me wrong, but it looks a helluva lot worse without maddux, glavine and smoltz starting and wohlers (when he was good) slamming the door.
  8. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    '95 was a very *balanced* lineup, not a Murderer's Row lineup.

    Every one of those guys -- especially guys like Polonia, Devereaux, Smith, O'Brien -- knew exactly what their role was and fit their role to a T. It's the best bench Atlanta has ever had in its 14-year run, bar none.

    Yeah, the staff was superb, as usual. And Mark Wohlers was dominating as a closer for the first time. But the lineup was creative, it was clutch (Devereaux, of course, won the NLCS MVP that year), and it never gave up.

    Say what you want about the stats, or the reputations, but Jones-Justice-McGriff-Klesko-Lopez came through all year long. That team shut down a powerhouse 100-44 Cleveland Indians team that fall. Definitely a strong lineup that any team would have trouble with.
  9. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    That's a flawed logic.

    Truth be told, the 2003 team was the "best" offensive team they've ever had. Scored 907 runs, most in franchise history. Every starter with double digit homers, career years from Lopez, Furcal and Giles. Five guys with 100+ runs. Four guys with 100+ RBI. Three guys hit over .300, a fourth was 8 points behind.

    Team BA of .284, 1st in the NL.
    Also led the league in R, H, HRs and SLG.
    2nd in OBP, 4th in 2B, 6th in 3B.

    1B Robert Fick .269 11 80
    2B Marcus Giles .316 21 69
    SS Rafael Furcal .292 15 61
    3B Vinny Castilla .277 22 76
    OF Chipper Jones .305 27 106
    OF Andruw Jones .277 36 116
    OF Gary Sheffield .330 39 132
    C Javy Lopez .328 43 109

    But they went out in the first round. Badly.
  10. Double J

    Double J Active Member

    I don't really know if the '85 collapse can be blamed on Cox. It was one of those things that happen. Game 5 and Game 6 could have gone either way and it wasn't Cox who served up the pitch to Jim Sundberg that basically ended Game 7.

    I just don't think it would have taken the Jays another four years to get back to the playoffs if Cox had still been at the helm. They should have won multiple division titles, at least, through the late '80s and may very well have done so if not for Jimy (One M) Williams trying desperately to prove he had a bigger dick than George Bell.

    I'll agree with you, though, that Cito did a great job. He has never gotten the credit he deserved for winning two World Series.
  11. buckweaver

    buckweaver Active Member

    Cito's still getting robbed to this day. What an injustice.


    Blue Jays manager, 1989-1997
    9 seasons (683-636 record, .518)
    4 division titles
    2 AL pennants
    2 World Series titles

    Never got a managerial job before 1989. Never got a managerial job after 1997. Why is this?
  12. Double J

    Double J Active Member

    People have always thought that Cito was capable of no more than filling out the lineup card -- the team was so talented it basically managed itself. He's never been able to shake that.

    Probably the low point in his career came when the Jays rehired him as a hitting coach, working for Jim Fregosi, the guy he had beaten in the '93 World Series. Fregosi, who has never won a World Series, has managed four different clubs and always seems to be in the running for one vacancy or another.

    But perhaps Cito is his own biggest problem. From what I understand he's always been kind of a laidback guy, not too interested in blowing his own horn. Unfortunately, as my dad's always told me, if you don't blow your own horn, no one else will do it for you.
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