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NYTimes Op-Ed: Why I Am Leaving Goldman Sachs

Discussion in 'Sports and News' started by lcjjdnh, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. lcjjdnh

    lcjjdnh Well-Known Member

    "Sophisticated" investors are also themselves often agents--running pension funds, mutual funds, etc.--who don't necessarily have interests perfectly aligned with actual investors.
     
  2. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Now THAT is revisionism.

    Even last year, there was thought in some corners to be a massive international crisis because of what S&P said about U.S. debt. Now, that turned out to be overblown (as you correctly predicted), but it shows that those agencies hold enormous sway.

    There are hundreds and hundreds and thousands and thousands of examples of reliance on ratings agencies. Pension funds, low-risk retirement accounts, you name it, the main requirement on those was that they invested in top-rated securities. That was it. That was the absolute #1 measuring stick. Now, you and a small handful of people in this economy might say now that you've always known the truth about the ratings agency staffing, but the general public did not know that, and the laws and regulations themselves invested an enormous amount of faith in those agencies.
     
  3. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    No it doesn't. You don't outsource your due diligence.
     
  4. Azrael

    Azrael Well-Known Member


    Based on forecasts, Jim Cramer and S & P both rate XYZ a hot triple-A lock. Bob the CEO was choppin' it up with the CNBC Money Honey just last night! Grab it and flip it!
     
  5. YankeeFan

    YankeeFan Well-Known Member

    That's true. There was one investor in Madoff's funds who held himself out as a "hedge fund manager" with excellent returns.

    The guys strategy? hand over all the money he raised to Bernie. (And, the fact that Bernie's funds were "closed" to new investors made this guys "strategy" desirable.)

    The guy wasn't a hedge fund manager. He was a sales guy.

    So, he failed in his due diligence, but so did the investors in his "fund".
     
  6. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    And so did the SEC, which had warning of what Madoff was doing eight years before it blew up. If that agency hadn't been turned into a eunuch by the industry it was supposed to govern, Madoff would have been in jail years earlier and investor losses would have been a tenth of what they ended up being.
     
  7. lcjjdnh

    lcjjdnh Well-Known Member

    A major problem with rating agencies is not that investors invested in these instruments because they were rated highly, but rather that the ratings allowed for financial institutions to use these to game things like capital requirements. Holding highly rated securities, for instance, requires less capital than lower-rated ones. One thus has an incentive to hold the riskiest assets in any given asset-class--especially if you earn a bonus based on "earnings"--to increase return.

    From the FCIC report:

     
  8. lcjjdnh

    lcjjdnh Well-Known Member

    But they're also not "sophisticated" investors. That doesn't excuse they're lack of due diligence, but it is an important distinction, I think, because banks often trot out the sophisticated investor argument.
     
  9. dixiehack

    dixiehack Well-Known Member

    "Sophisticated investor" refers to people with a specific income or net worth. You can be dumb as a brick but if you hit the magic number you qualify.
     
  10. lcjjdnh

    lcjjdnh Well-Known Member

    Likewise, fund managers may not be able to invest in certain securities if they don't have a certain rating. Even if they should done due diligence, rating agencies still could have been one of the many causes of the crisis, because but-for those ratings, the funds could not have made those investments.
     
  11. The Big Ragu

    The Big Ragu Moderator Staff Member

    Revision of who or what? A Michael Lewis narrative (and it's not really the narrative)?

    There isn't a pension, or other large investment, fund that doesn't have its own team of analysts, in addition to buying research from dozens of Wall Street firms, and subscribing to services that S&P or Moody's offer.

    Pension fund managers are evaluated by performance. They have never left their performance in anyone else's hands, let alone something like S&P.

    When they buy bond of derivative products, it's not like they skip doing their own work. Nobody pulls up a Moody's ratings, and rolls the dice based on it. Anyone who did that wouldn't have been very successful in 1978 or 2008.

    I know the simplistic narrative people have somehow crafted from Michael Lewis books and magazine articles is, "They believed S&P! S&P was clueless! (and it is)" but Michael Lewis (or anyone else) wasn't suggesting anything that simplistic, and pension funds are not out there buying bonds or CDOs or anything else based on S&P ratings. Not unless the managers aren't trying to do their jobs.

    S&P was worthless before 2008, and it's not like people didn't inherently know it then. It has always been ONE tool, in a toolbox full of tools (research and analysis you can buy) that you paid for to help you do your job.

    With mortgages, the reason people made bad investments wasn't that they sat back and relied on S&P or Moody's or Fitch. It was because they saw everyone around them making money, panicked, and didn't want to be left on the sidelines. So they put blinders on themselves and chased momentum. They got sucked in by hype and fed a bubble. And as useless as the ratings agencies were, they were more victims of the same thing, not the cause.
     
  12. LongTimeListener

    LongTimeListener Well-Known Member

    Then why in the hell did Goldman and everyone else package up those securities and get the highest ratings on them? Because the rating didn't matter?
     
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